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Toyota puts U.S. workers on alert: Made-in-Japan Camrys cheaper

Discussion in 'Auto News & Rumors' started by hemirunner426, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. BobbiBigWheels

    BobbiBigWheels I'm likely at work...
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    Pretty much. My employer pays 50% of my MSP, GST "Government sales tax (federal)", PST "Provincial Sales Tax (state)".
     
  2. aldo90731

    Level III Supporter

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    Provinces fund healthcare through part of PST, through part of alcohol, tobacco and fuel taxes, through part of provincial income tax, and through redistributions from the GST and collected federal income tax. So they are related that way.

    I don’t want to get political, but I am as personally familiar with both US and Canada healthcare systems as anyone is likely to encounter.

    What makes Canada’s healthcare system work, in a way the US system doesn’t, are two key differences:
    1. Universal healthcare spreads costs across a greater number of people, therefore lowering them for each individual. Healthcare costs tend to increase with age, so as long as there’s moderate population growth, younger users tend to cover healthcare costs as we grow older. In the US, healthcare is employer-dependent, which can cause coverage problems when you are self-employed, unemployed or retired.
    2. Healthcare tends to be a non-profit sector in Canada, as opposed to a for-profit sector in the US. After having lived many years in both Canada and US, I am now convinced that free-market economics do not work with healthcare. For the laws of economics to work, consumers need to behave rationally, have access to choices, to substitution, and the freedom to delay or pull forward “consumption” of the good or service. But none of these really apply to healthcare.
      • Despite much talk about “choices” in the US, once we pick a healthcare plan and PCP, we are pretty much stuck with those. Worse, we are stuck with our employer, too. Often, when we switch employment, we are forced to change health plans and to give up our PCP.
      • Unlike other services, we do not really have the luxury of postponing or substituting treatment. Once we feel ill, we want to feel better NOW. Not tomorrow, not next week, not next month, and certainly not next year. Similarly, we don’t really allow substitution: we want the best care we can get. For all the talk about inefficiencies in a socialized system, the US healthcare system has three for-profit layers stacked on top of each other: healthcare insurers, healthcare providers and pharmaceuticals, each elbowing for its “fair” share of the profits. Managing three for-profit layers ends up siphoning off the efficiency from the entire system —and from our premiums and, ultimately, our pockets.
    I’d say most Canadians feel proud of their healthcare system, although no system is perfect. As everywhere else, politics take hold and some people love to point out its shortcomings, which it has. But overall, it delivers. Most tellingly, Canadians dread when they hear news, reports, and personal stories of the US healthcare system.

    With two elderly parents, I have seen Canada’s healthcare system at work many times, and my assessment is: the system works brilliantly when it counts.

    My mom passed away three weeks ago: she fell, hit her head, developed internal brain hemorrhaging, slipped into a coma, and died eight days later. When my 82 year old mom woke up at 3am to use the restroom and collapsed in their home, my 87 year old dad called the paramedics, who rushed them into emergency. The emergency staff was all-hands on deck to stabilize her. They ran brain scans and by 9am they asked us to make a choice: do nothing and let her pass away within 24 hours; or transfer her to a nearby hospital to do brain surgery in hopes to relieve the pressure, although chances of recovery were minimal. Dad chose to give mom every chance, and opted for brain surgery. Despite the operation having gone well, she never regained consciousness, and despite much hope, she passed away eight days later.

    The level of care from the paramedics and the staff at both hospitals, throughout the entire ordeal, including one week in ICU, was top notch. In the US, the paramedics bill would have been around $10,000, of which the employer-based coverage would have been around 80%, leaving us to pay a $2,000 portion. The emergency room cost would have been in the tens of thousands; the brain surgery and one week in ICU would have run in the hundreds of thousands, with insurance covering a portion of those as well, leaving a big chunk for me and my family to figure out.

    When one is overcome with shock, suffering and grief, one is in NO position to make rational decisions. Yet, the first thing they ask you when you encounter the US healthcare is “Who is going to pay for this?” By not having to worry about who was going to pay for mom’s brain surgery, I felt we had true freedom of choice. And by removing financials out of the suffering, Canada’s system left me feeling like I was dealing with a much more humane system.

    I am a healthy, non-smoking, 53 year old self-employed male in Washington State. Kaiser collects $6,000 in premiums from me every year. And it doesn’t get to spend one cent on me until I have first spent an additional $7,500 out of my pocket in medical visits, prescriptions and treatment over the year. In so many words, first I have to fork out $13,500 out of my pocket, before my insurer and health provider get to spend one dime.

    Kaiser keeps sending me reminders to have this and that other preventative check done, but the fact that they get to ride me out of tens of thousands of dollars irks me so much, that I end up making the irrational decision of delaying preventative care.

    America‘s healthcare includes some of the best facilities and most brilliant professionals in the world. Our problem is not of quality of care; our problem is more basic: of access to care. And by tying healthcare to corporate employment, we are inadvertently thwarting the very entrepreneurial drive of which we collectively pride ourselves, and has fueled America's economic development for decades.
     
    #42 aldo90731, Nov 27, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
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  3. wtxiceman

    wtxiceman Well-Known Member

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    Good read, thanks for sharing.
     
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  4. Doug D

    Doug D Virginia Gentleman

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    When the number one reason for filing bankruptcy is catastrophic health costs even when you have health insurance, it's telling you something. Yes, the US has the best health care, but it does not have the best way for paying for it.
     
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  5. Lee N. Burns

    Level 2 Supporter

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    What should be the #1 reason for bankruptcy? If medical bill repayment plans are anything like mortgages, they often won't talk to you about repayment plans without a BR filing. Most people wouldn't have $50k laying around in savings, but they could afford payments.
     
  6. GasAxe

    GasAxe Well-Known Member

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    I am very sorry for your loss Aldo. Please accept my deepest condolences.

    You have written the most succinct summary of US heath care I have seen. For 2018 my premiums went up nearly 9%, my out of pocket went up nearly 40%, and coverage now tops out at 80% across the board. As I get older, I find my health choices for emergency care are basically life with near or absolute bankrupting my family or death with a positive payout. Some choice, eh.:oops: I also see how pathetic government run healthcare is for my father through the VA. I think you are spot on with your assessment but culturally, I don't believe the US will detoxify itself of capitalist based health care in my lifetime.
     
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  7. GasAxe

    GasAxe Well-Known Member

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    When my family went through a health crisis, a gentle breeze could of pushed us over into losing our house. Bills went up be ~20% while income went down ~30%. Part of what hurt the most was hospitals demanding pre-payment for service even though we had decent insurance that would reimburse much of the cost. The cycle of bill, loans, payment, partial reimbursement was way more financially devastating than what the hospitals or insurance company gave us credit for. Nothing like being hounded by the hospitals collection agencies for payment when the insurance company refuses reimbursement because of disagreements on how the hospital would code the bills.
     
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  8. Erik Latranyi

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    Sorry, but there is little capitalism left in the US healthcare industry.

    Since employer paid healthcare came in, it has gotten worse. Heavily regulated insurance companies (only those who pay homage to politicians) are approved to offer plans. Medical Centers are growing larger, taking.away.competition due to all the regulations and paperwork. Medicaid/Medicare have distorted the market by price fixing what a bureaucrat thinks is right, not the market.

    There is no capitalism, just regulation and government control.

    If you want a free market solution, look to doctors who offer $10 per Month per person plans that includes all basic medical care, including minor surgeries and stays.

    THAT is capitalism.
     
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  9. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    Toyota, but also Honda, will in next years reduce the number of models sold in Japan for about 50%.
    That will have also an effect on their global production allocations of each model production that will take place when they will introduce next generations of actual models and/or new models.

    note: U.S.A. economy has an oligopolistic nature, and that since a century or more. So consolidated that lobbying activities are also codified.
     
  10. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

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    I believe by "capitalism", you mean free-market economics, because what's happening at the moment is pure capitalism, not government control. The last few years have seen unprecedented consolidation of ownership of healthcare facilities, and insurers colluding to create regional monopolies, and this is what's affecting prices. So yes, prices are indeed fixed by bureaucrats, but they're in the financial centres of large hospital corporations, not in Washington.

    The True Price of Reduced Competition in Health Care: Hospital Monopolies Drastically Drive Up Prices - (at https://promarket.org/the-true-price-of-reduced-competition-in-health-care-hospital-monopolies-drastically-drive-up-prices/ )

    This is rampant capitalism, and it is not a good thing for a consumer - monopolies lead to rent-seeking, where those with the cash distort the marketplace to ensure that they get a larger profit, whether they've produced anything for it or not. Hospitals are merging like crazy, because mergers create local monopolies, and monopolies can charge what they want.

    Government efforts to fix this problem (from both sides of the political divide) have traditionally been half-hearted, thwarted by lobbying, and driven more by ideology than economic sense. AHCA is actually one of the better attempts, and would eventually have created a free, open market for health insurance, but this is exactly what the hospital businesses do not want, because competition reduces prices, and they've been running for years without needing to control their spiralling operating costs, safe in the knowledge that people will continue to pay ever-higher insurance. Having to face true competition on service delivery would bankrupt some of these organisations.

    And there's no way you can convince me that a business that needs to charge out a 2-minute suture at $500, or an aspirin tablet at $15 is in control of its costs. Reform of healthcare is an existential threat to many US hospital corporations, and they will do anything they can to prevent it.
     
  11. Erik Latranyi

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    We are way off topic here.

    But hospitals are not allowed to consolidate without government permission. Insurers cannot change rates without government permission. There is ZERO capitalism here. Everything is regulated and controlled.

    The 2 minute suture job at $500 and aspiring for $15 is because of malpractice insurance rates.....insurance companies regulated by elected lawyers who benefit other lawyers.

    If you can't see the system is rigged by the lawyers (politicians are mostly elected lawyers) then you cannot see.

    Now, let's get back to Toyota cutting costs.
     
  12. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    (after I've had the last word....) :)
     
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  13. pt006

    pt006 Active Member

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    The main purpose of a hospital is to make sick people well. The CEO of Yale New Haven hospital got paid $3,500,000 last year. I'm not sure what he did to deserve [?] it. --- And who will foot the medical bills for the workers at the foreign car factories when they retire?
     

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