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Trump and cafe standards

Discussion in 'Off Topic But Still Civil' started by voiceofstl, Jun 24, 2020.

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  1. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    No, a person can move to California with a federal emissions car, and a resident of California can buy used cars from out of state. A new car must be a California emissions vehicle.

    The federal emissions car brought used into California is still subject to emissions testing, but does not need modified for California standards.
     
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  2. Tony K

    Tony K Active Member

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    There IS one national standard. California and other states have decided they want to do better. It's like in the military, a commander can usually decide to enforce a higher standard than service-wide standards, he just can't reduce standards. Federalism works the same way, absent pre-emption.
     
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  3. voiceofstl

    voiceofstl Well-Known Member

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    Car manufacters have to raise the price of a car for everyone to meet Ca standards, not fair.
     
  4. freshforged

    freshforged Well-Known Member

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    Seems like amortizing the cost over an entire production output should reduce the cost for everyone. Sounds like a win.
     
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  5. 06PTElectricBlue

    06PTElectricBlue Active Member

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    I know we could never find out, but it would be interesting to know exactly what the cost difference is between a vehicle built to meet CA standards, and then that same vehicle built for all the other states? Is it just a few hundred $ or thousands? ;)
     
  6. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    It would vary for each model of car, since it's dependent on engine and transmission combinations.
    But since CA is as big as most countries, its market is significant enough to balance out the cost fairly well.
     
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  7. Ryan

    Ryan Moderator
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    Do you also believe that it somehow makes cars less safe?
     
  8. voiceofstl

    voiceofstl Well-Known Member

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    yes..the money could be used for safty
     
  9. patfromigh

    patfromigh Well-Known Member

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    I must add my observations to the discussions of this thread. The title of this thread, Trump and cafe standards, would indicate it is about the CAFE standards and regulations. The current administration wants a lower standard, while a number of automakers want uniformity and consistency in regulations. What concerns me is when the accusation of science denial is injected into the discussion.

    Condensing what some credible and credentialed people have stated, the concern over climate change is that what nature has spent eons placing into the ground (carbon sources of energy), humankind is extracting and pumping into the environment at an alarming rate. What is feared is that the climate change occurring in the present decades is the result of this rapid use of carbon based energy sources. A number of people from different fields have directed their study and research into how to deal with the problem. The solution, simply stated, is conservation. Achieving conservation and slowing the rate of carbon use is the hard part. What are the workable ideas for the solution?

    One such idea given is the panacea known as the corporate average fuel economy standard or CAFE. The CAFE standard is a political football to be tossed back and forth. The administration wants a lower numerical standard while another group of politicians wants a higher one. I would argue that the CAFE regulation is worse than doing nothing, because it creates a false sense of doing something.

    Please note, I am not talking about all emissions regulations, just the CAFE.

    To suggest those who oppose the CAFE standard have science denial, is evidence that the very concept of the CAFE standards are Lysenkoism. The concept is flawed because it does not account for vehicle miles traveled of VMT, which has risen with the CAFE number over the decades at a parallel rate. The CAFE standards do not account for how or where a vehicle is used. The CAFE standards are designed to manipulate the market with centralized planning. Anybody with a an understanding of automobile history recognizes those tiny minimal cars of the late 1970s and 80s which were the result of government meddling in the marketplace. Many of those vehicles had a disposable feel to them and because they were sold at as low of price as possible, also had poor resale value.

    The probable reason the CAFE standard became dogma is because it gets people elected. various people have won elections bolstered by their promise to either raise the number or lower it. This is another characteristic of Lysenkoism, politics rules over science. “Michurinist biology, which later morphed into Lysenkoism, was convenient for a Soviet government trying to engineer the perfect social utopia. Under this system, they thought they could quickly force plants and animals, even the Soviet people, into forms that could serve practical requirements.” This is a quote from an article in Smithsonian Magazine.

    Unfortunately, some politicians could win elections with demagoguery. Real solutions such as consumption taxes were all thrown under an umbrella of "Cap N Trade". The voters were scared with campaign ads of having their wallets sucked dry by environmentalists. Instead of CAFE's punitive financial measures placed on automakers for selling vehicles people want to buy, there might have been an excise tax on those vehicles which fall below a specified fuel efficiency. This is similar to the gas guzzler tax, but covers a wider range of vehicles. VMT is influenced by fuel cost, this has been demonstrated by the fluctuation in full cost over the decades. None of this hard stuff is palatable to voters however.

    For some reason many who consider themselves libertarians oppose such energy taxes along with the CAFE standards, yet remain silent on the government subsidy of leapfrog development. A number of authors have documented this development of far flung suburbs as social engineering and a means to sustain automobile dependency. Other political ideologies are silent on this as well, but they understand that some taxes are beneficial.

    This is why we have the CAFE standards. It gives our nation a feeling of actually doing something while wasting both time and natural resources.
     
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  10. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    I've argued against CAFE, as you are doing, for years. There are three reasons CAFE makes no sense.

    1) The implementation, where larger vehicles are allowed to pollute more.
    2) The implementation, with all the loopholes, e.g. flex-fuel vehicles get a huge bonus.
    3) The fact that once you buy a vehicle, there is no incentive to drive it less.

    During the 1980s, libertarians and many Republicans argued for a carbon tax or a fuel tax instead. They said this would be a market solution. They convinced me but then they refused to actually support such a solution, and we ended up keeping the very imperfect CAFE.

    CAFE is better than nothing in that, without CAFE, we would not have real solutions such as consumption taxes. We would have nothing.

    PS> CAFE ends up being an excise tax, in essence. Automakers who don't make the numbers pay other automakers through cap-and-trade. It's an excise tax that helps scum like Tesla, though, rather than helping customers by paying off some of our record national debt.
     
  11. aldo90731

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    CAFE is also responsible for Jeep pushing the 2.0T on Wranglers, and other abominations.

    But it gives ALL automakers a standardized goal to works towards. The problems appear to be mostly in how it was executed.
     
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  12. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    That is the very issue with many regulations and laws. There is usually good rationale for the NEED for some type of regulatory action...pollution, health impact, fire safety, etc. However, the actual regulations put into effect may not adequately address the need...enter the poor execution. There may be several reasons for that. Politics, poor understanding of the issue, lack of resources, etc.
     
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  13. freshforged

    freshforged Well-Known Member

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    A straight up fuel tax is too regressive, in that it’s the poor who have very little option but to buy used and thus LESS fuel efficient vehicles who would be hit hardest, especially since these folk are less able to “work from home.” A more egalitarian way would be a cash-for-clunkers program that would spur more efficient electric car purchases. But that of course is shot down because those with expendable income want cheap classics to make into expensive toys.

    I know many people on this board fix up old cars. My point is not to troll you, but demonstrate how this works AGAINST people in the lowest income brackets. We want to change American consumption, we cant do it without recognizing and addressing the elephant in the room.
     
  14. patfromigh

    patfromigh Well-Known Member

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    The most affordable used vehicles are fuel efficient. Go on a used car website and check it out. Every time there is an energy price spike, consumers go out and buy small economy cars in a panic, only to dump them on the used car market a few years later.

    Someone in London, UK came up with the idea of targeting areas for EV charging stations by pollution levels. This will ensure apartment dwellers have access to charging stations. I don't know how affordable EVs are in England, but used plugin EVs can be very affordable here. Ford dumped a bunch of hybrids on the rental fleets to boost their fleet average, most of them are Fusions. These vehicles received regular maintenance and have reasonable prices as used cars.

    The problem in the United States is that we give financial assistance to those with more affluence over that of the less well off. We have decentralized cities by subsidizing road building to suburban developments, which also receive subsidies. Where I live a major employer has plans to move out of downtown to an outlying town for some tax relief. This company is expecting to have taxpayers pony up for a light-rail line extension as well. In our region we have split public transit into substandard bus service for the disadvantaged and expensive rail projects for the gentry,

    In the postwar period our society has embarked on a program of separating living, shopping and business into separate districts. This has created automobile dependency, or as some people phrase it, mandatory driving.

    If fuel is taxed by carbon content maybe more people will go for alternative fuels. An excise tax based on automotive fuel efficiency will help sway purchases towards better fuel economy.
     
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  15. 68RT

    68RT Well-Known Member

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    Most smaller cars built in the last 10 years run well and get decent mileage. However, many poorer families need more than a small car. Many are scared to purchase used hybrid vehicles as they can be costly when issues cone up. Most of the carbon taxes I have seen proposed do not reflect the carbon used to produce the motor/battery in their computations.
     
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  16. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    Exactly. The original CAFE standards sent people from passenger cars to less efficient trucks and SUVs. When they downsized large cars to FWD without towing capacity, those customers were forced to larger vehicles.
     
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  17. DC-93

    DC-93 Well-Known Member

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    What would you drive if gas was 10 bucks a gallon??
     
  18. patfromigh

    patfromigh Well-Known Member

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    I can get a barely used Fiat 500e for less than 10 Grand. On the other hand, I live on a frequent bus route, and the layover point is less than a block away. I just might drive a Challenger R/T and take the bus a lot.

    We are still waiting for the North American editions of the PHEV Jeeps. Until I see something real on the pavement, the FCA products are strictly fantasy and wishing. The Ford Escape PHEV is getting positive reviews, while the RAV4 plugin is still waiting in the wings. The press hasn't had the chance to get their hands on the Toyota yet.

    If the USA didn't have the worst public transit system in the industrialized world maybe we wouldn't worry about high fuel prices. Robust public transit offers some price competition against high driving costs. (Service not available in all areas.)
     
  19. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Most people who drive trucks don't tow... but yes, CAFE was badly implemented from the start for not having just one target number, period, for all vehicles that can be driven without a CDL.
     
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  20. 68RT

    68RT Well-Known Member

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    I live in Temple TX very near the center of the city. However, it is 2 miles to reach public transportation. There are only two scheduled routes and unscheduled only goes .75 mile from the scheduled route. Driving to the nearest stop and taking the bus is 26 minutes to the hospital near me. Driving time is 9 minutes. Temple has a population of about 80k and has a major hospital center that covers the region. About 11k employees for the two big hospitals and almost all must drive individually. Also same for our children's hospital.
     
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