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Turns over but no start!

Discussion in 'EEK! - Every Extended-K Car' started by Nelly, Aug 23, 2020.

  1. chuzz

    chuzz Allpar Legacy

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    Where did you get the NEW hall effect switch? If from Autozone, Advance or O'Reilly, THAT could be the issue. Having worked for 2 of the 3 mentioned places, I saw quite a few of those come back to the store as defective. I'd recommend an OEM Mopar one if you can still get one. I'm NOT a mechanic, but it seems like you should be getting spark with all of the other things you've tried. You don't mention trying another hall effect switch.
     
  2. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    What was the model year of the vehicle that supplied the replacement engine? In the 1985 - 1986 time frame there were changes to the distributor ignition system and logic module along with engine head modifications on the 2.2 liter 4 cylinder turbo. This could cause compatibility issues and a no start situation.
     
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  3. 85lebaront2

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    If needed I have a Turbo LM from a 1986 Laser XE with automatic, I also have at least one power module for 1985-87 turbo engines.

    Let me give you a quick sanity check. With the distributor out of the engine (put it on TDC first and note which way the rotor is pointing) connected to the harness with the key on spin the distributor. The very first thing you should here is the ASD relay in the PM close, turning on power to the Z1 (dark green with black stripe) circuit. This powers the fuel pump, ignition coil positive and injectors. Without this occurring it will never start. One further check if this doesn't work, at the diagnostic connector (5 pin roughly L shaped plug that may still have a protective cover) using an extra 1/4" wide male terminal, ground the dark blue yellow stripe wire, this activates the ASD relay in the PM, if it does not activate be sure you have all 12V sources powered including the pink fusible link that is right from the battery to pin # 4 of the 10 way plug, Pin # 2 (dark blue) is ignition on power. Pin # 12 of the 12 way plug is the 8 volt output that powers the HEP pickups, if it isn't there then there is no signal to the LM to "wake" everything up and run.
     
  4. Nelly

    Nelly Active Member

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    Just to clarify...

    What was changed was “motor for motor”. All original sensors were put on the new motor from the old one and fit where they’re supposed to go. So basically it’s just as it was before the engine was changed. The logic module is the original. The power module is the original. Cap and rotor were bought new. Hall effect sensor is new. Spark plugs are new.

    Initially starts for two seconds and quits. If you keep trying it, it loses spark.

    All fuses checked and good.
     
  5. Nelly

    Nelly Active Member

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    Also the knock sensor was accidentally damaged but is still plugged in. the sensor just behind the valve cover. Would this play a part in it not starting?
     
  6. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    Detonation sensor is single wire. Unplug the sensor and place it such that the electrical terminal does NOT touch ground on the block. Try starting the engine.

    When you initially turn the ignition key switch to the ON / RUN position, the logic module powers up the auto shut down relay, fuel injector circuits, fuel pump, ignition coil for 2 seconds. You continue to turn the ignition key switch to the START position, the starter is engaged, the crankshaft starts to rotate and the engine fires and runs. Within this 2 second interval the logic module receives a pulsing signal from the distributor indicating that the crankshaft is rotating so it continues to keep the previously mentioned circuits energized.

    What is happening is that after the 2 second interval the pulsing signal from the distributor is NOT present so the logic module is powering down the circuits so the engine stops running. As mentioned in post #22 was the distributor from the failed engine installed on the replacement engine? You could have a compatibility problem with the ignition distributor because of a different model year engine. There are 2 pigtail connectors at the distributor. Are they mated to the correct wiring harnesses?
     
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  7. Nelly

    Nelly Active Member

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    So here’s the latest:

    To clarify the engine is not exactly starting up. What it’s doing is cranking and then it gets a “burst” or kicks like it wants to start but never actually does. We check for spark (coil wire to ground) and while cranking you will get spark but it’s once or so and it doesn’t stay. Codes 11 and 12.

    The distributor being used is the one from the motor originally in the car, not the donor engine.. the connectors are correct.

    Will be putting on a new knock sensor to replace the damaged one.
    Hall effect sensor is a new one.
    Rotor is new.
    Distributor cap is new.
    Wires are good since the car ran fine prior to this.
     
  8. dana44

    Ad-Free Member

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    Wires are good since the car ran fine prior to this. This can also be a little bit of a misnomer, an engine in and out could have damaged something. This almost sounds like the old ballast resistor problems where the car would "start" with the key being held then stop when you let off the ignition to run and the circuit was then in loss of electricity.

    With that, have you rotated the engine by hand and lined up the timing marks, verifying the rotor is pointing in the proper (or 180 degrees) location?

    Did we ever determine what year the new engine was? Any possibility that there is a change of a sensor changed we haven't thought about?
     
  9. 85lebaront2

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    Quick static check on distributor timing, with the engine set at the 12° mark on the transaxle housing, blue/yellow wire in test connector grounded so the ASD is closed, distributor clamp loosened enough so it can be moved. Take the coil wire out of the cap (carefully in case it gets triggered) and place it near a solid ground (cyl head). move the distributor as far to the retard side as it will go and slowly bring it back until the coil fires, repeat this until you are pretty sure of the point it fires at. Pull the cap and see which cylinder tower the rotor is pointing toward, if it is not 1 or 4 you have a problem. rotate the engine again (a 13 or 15mm socket will fit the crank bolt) and stop at TDC, remove the plug from the belt guard and see if the cam sprocket TDC mark is visible, if not, go around once more and look for it.

    If you can't find it at either point, remove the upper belt guard and see where things are. Since the flywheel or flex plate and torque converter have only one way they will fit, the timing mark groove will be TDC 1 & 4, cam determines which it is and the distributor has to match that. FWIW, on a turbo the distributor's #1 has to be correct as the shutter for #1 has a square hole in it. Be sure you have a turbo distributor.as an NA distributor lacks the vane with the hole and will not sequence the injectors (not trigger from what I determined).
     
  10. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Clearly, the ASD relay is opening up after not seeing a signal from the HEP. That's why the code 11.
     
  11. Nelly

    Nelly Active Member

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    Here’s the latest news. The car did finally start! It does run, though badly. It starts but it’s hard to do. It appears to have a misfire. Any ideas as to what’s going on?
     
  12. 85lebaront2

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    Have you been able to check the actual timing? If it is retarded at will be hard to start, run rough and have no power.
     
  13. Nelly

    Nelly Active Member

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    It runs...and drives!!

    We finally got it to idle and yard drive. Here’s what it does:

    It (can) idle very smoothly. Suddenly it will start to idle rough and misfire. If you advance the timing at the distributor it will of course spark knock but it will backfire out the exhaust as well. However, it will stay running “better” if you will, but still not great.

    If you back-out the timing, it will idle great, but if you give it gas it will chug and sputter. If you put it in gear it will die. It doesn’t drive well at all with the distributor set where it’s basically should be.

    We are thinking this is a timing issue. No codes set but “33”. Pretty certain that is an A/C code and we do have it unplugged.

    I know it’s been suggested before but any other suggestions on getting the timing right? We think it could be off a tooth. Unsure which was to move it, back or forward.

    Any ideas as to what gives? It’s come soooo far from not running at all. Just got to figure out what is making it run so bad!
     
  14. dana44

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    Before having to pull some covers and check the timing belt and timing marks properly, check the distributor for the proper gap on the hall effect and make sure there isn't any play in the distributor shaft that would alter the ignition gap, and also, just to make a comment on the idiot side of things on my part, double check the firing order itself (I say this because my old engine TR-4 could swap two plug wires 180 degrees and still run well without backfiring, so just something to check). Something isn't quite right yet, but at least you are heading in the right direction, so now it is fine tuning. With a timing light, you can check to see if each of the four sparkplug wires are firing and if they break up spark when you rev the engine. Old plug wires (carbon core especially) will break down over time and if the electric connection is taken apart too many parts, making them weak, misfires do occur, some worse than others.
     
  15. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Verify that valve timing is correct, then verify ignition timing, which MUST be set with engine warm and CTS unplugged.
    Also check that spark plugs are in correct firing order. Looking at the engine from the front, #1 plug tower on the distributor cap will be the left rear (passenger side rear), and clockwise, wires and rotation should be cylinders 1-3-4-2.
     
  16. chuzz

    chuzz Allpar Legacy

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    I'm not sure because of my defective memory, but doesn't that distributor have a metal plate where it mounts and you can adjust the position with it? The metal plate is on the bottom of the distributor, IIRC, and has two bolts that hold it to the distributor and slotted grooves.
     

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