AF: Unifor Negotiations | Allpar Forums
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Unifor Negotiations

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by ShawnP, Sep 23, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ShawnP

    ShawnP Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2018
    Messages:
    461
    Likes:
    498
  2. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
    Staff Member Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2001
    Messages:
    35,032
    Likes:
    20,792
    Canadian plants are both a major point of contention. In the US the plan is pretty clear. In Canada there's still a chance they could shut down both plants despite recent investments in the minivans and the forthcoming Giorgio cars.

    Giorgio cars could be built in the new plant on Mack Avenue.
     
    HotCarNut likes this.
  3. Clark

    Clark Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2019
    Messages:
    23
    Likes:
    25
  4. Adventurer55

    Adventurer55 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Messages:
    3,413
    Likes:
    4,437
    While the article makes some interesting speculation, it's just that. These negotiations with Unifor may be the most important negotiations to occur in at least 35 or 40 years. These plants will live or die on these talks. I feel that is the reason nothing has been added to Windsor, and no updates of any importance has happened at Brampton. This plant competition has been created by FCA, mainly by just either not investing in new products, or discontinuing old ones. It's not a coincidence that Belvedere is anchoring the west end of their plant structure with an old product and Brampton is anchoring the east end with old product. Brampton does produce something no other plant has. Rwd cars. Windsor is the one that has to tread lightly. I hope the Canadian government realizes this.
     
    HotCarNut and aldo90731 like this.
  5. joewho

    joewho Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    130
    Likes:
    18
    and that's why you don't bargain for product you bargain for plant closure language. unions job is to protect the workers
     
    AHBGuru and thebluegoat like this.
  6. turbonetic

    turbonetic Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2019
    Messages:
    157
    Likes:
    211
    Ford to build 6.8L pushrod V8 in Canada for "F150 and mustang derivatives". Rumor is it may replace the 5.0L as it's cheaper to build.
     
    thebluegoat likes this.
  7. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2020
    Messages:
    92
    Likes:
    66
    Considering how much the Canadian Government is willing to provide financial support towards its local industries (1); why doesn't Unifor lobby Trudeau into having his government invest (2) into Stellantis to enable said company to not only retool the Windsor Plant to become a RAM Truck Facility (3), but to also retool the Brampton Plant to produce SUVs/CUVs alongside the Sedans it currently produces (4) as well?

    Because without such a deal in place; we not only face the likely possibility of Windsor being shut as part of these talks, but also see Brampton follow suit in a few years. So instead of seeing these plants shut down altogether (and have Stellantis then spend money building a new plant for its RAM and/or Jeep divisions), why not just retool them to give both plants an actual future?

    (1) As shown by their willingness to bailout Bombardier, GM & of course Chrysler themselves.

    (2) Enough to retool both the Brampton Plant & Windsor Plant via the issuing of preference shares, with posion pills to force Stellantis to pay back the Candiaian Government if they decide to close either or both plants.

    (3) With Pacifica production being moved to Belvidere.

    (4) Idealy for Future Chrysler SUVs/CUVs
     
  8. 77 Monaco Brougham

    77 Monaco Brougham Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2017
    Messages:
    2,284
    Likes:
    3,535
    I might be mistaken on this, but doesn't FCA have an excess of manufacturing capacity in Europe? If that's still the case, then the conclusion of the merger will only make the situation worse.

    In any event, I'm fully expecting FCA to use the Unifor negotiations to attempt to extract as much as they can possibly get from the Canadian Federal Government, and the Provincial Government of Ontario.

    What else is new?;)
     
    Adventurer55, Chrysler UK and cygnus like this.
  9. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2020
    Messages:
    92
    Likes:
    66
    There is a general excess of manufacturing capacity for European Carmakers as a whole (thanks to the fact Europe itself now has too many carmakers); hence why GM sold Opel/Vauxhall to PSA, why FCA & PSA are merging and why Ford is rumoured to be selling Ford Europe to VW (unless they buy Ford itself).

    Personally when one looks at the wider geopoltics and economics in Europe, I wouldn't be surprised if Ellesmere Port & Luton get closed down by Stellantis post-merger. Because there is no chance that any French, Italian, German or Iberian plant will get closed first while a No-Deal Brexit (and Britain's refusal to properly invest in industry) will make sure that the British plants will get closed first before any Polish, Serbian or Slovak plant does.
     
    Tony K likes this.
  10. KrisW

    KrisW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,374
    Likes:
    4,837
    The spate of mergers is as much about the costs of adopting electric power trains as capacity: car makers are big on shouting about "all new" developments, but even the latest engines use designs developed and proven over decades. EVs can't use any of that accumulated back-catalogue of R&D - everyone has to start from scratch, and that is going to be expensive (electric propulsion is simple and well-proven, but lightweight, efficient battery systems are not)

    Unfortunately, I think you're right about Opel's UK sites. The British factories are good performers, but logistically, it will be very hard to make cars at Opel/Vauxhall's price-point in the UK if so many of their components get delayed or subject to tariffs coming from the continent (or other countries - Brexit meant the UK will lose beneficial terms not just with the EU, but also all the countries that the EU had trade deals with; something that I think hasn't really sunk in yet). Better to do the assembly in one customs zone, and handle the paperwork for the completed cars, rather than the thousands of parts that go into each one.
     
    Chrysler UK likes this.
  11. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    10,310
    Likes:
    21,726
    Indeed. Chrysler has demonstrated a long commitment to Canada that seems to have vanished under FCA.

    Canada is FCA’s single strongest market on a per-capita basis; and Canadians have demonstrated their loyalty to Chrysler through thick and thin. Let’s hope someone in the building remembers this.
     
    Chebby7, thebluegoat, jclick and 5 others like this.
  12. HotCarNut

    HotCarNut Defender of Reality
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,937
    Likes:
    2,792
    Plus having those Canadian plants is leverage with the UAW, much as the manufacturing in Mexico provides leverage. I wouldn't want to close them down, but I WOULD want some serious tax relief or abatements to reinvest in the plants. Simply put, each one probably needs $1.5-2 billion in upgrades to build the future RWD sedans, SUVs/CUVs, or other people movers with electrification and the Giorgio global platform.
     
    Adventurer55 and aldo90731 like this.
  13. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2020
    Messages:
    92
    Likes:
    66
    The cost of developing BEV's is indeed another factor to why these mergers are talking place; mainly because unlike Tesla, they cannot use the stock market to raise cash for the development of BEV Technology.

    This fact about Ellesmere Port shows how dependent it is on good access to overseas markets:

    Ellesmere Port Vauxhall plant celebrates four millionth Astra (at https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/ellesmere-port-vauxhall-plant-celebrates-13574737 )

    Which goes to show how important it is for Britain's Automobile Industry to have good access to overseas markets since said automobile industry is almost entirely foreign owned and in turn receives very little in terms of government support. So if it becomes harder for overseas carmakers to make cars in Britain, they have no disincentive to close their operations in Britain.

    What would really help those working in the Automobile Industry (in North America as a whole) would be if Unions in Canada, United States & Mexico all actually worked together (rather than against each other) when it comes to dealing with their employers. Of course its eaiser said than done...

    The Canadian Government would be better off investing $4 billion into Stellantis in return for preference shares; because if they are going to give Stellantis any form of financial support, they should be in a poistion to benefit from any returns from that investment.
     
    chcharlie likes this.
  14. HotCarNut

    HotCarNut Defender of Reality
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,937
    Likes:
    2,792
    That would certainly be best for Unions. Of course, what's actually best for line employees would be the abolition of the unions and throwing the leadership in jail, but that's a topic for another thread. And yes, I worked in a UAW plant and saw first-hand the "benefits" of the unions. There's a lot of great reasons that the UAW can't get workers at southern non-union plants to vote for organization.
     
    page2171 likes this.
  15. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2020
    Messages:
    92
    Likes:
    66
    I would agree that UAW & Unifor (alongside their counterparts in Mexico) are doing a bad job for their members. Hence why I would prefer to see them replaced by a single Trade Union representing Auto Industry Workers across all 3 counties.
     
  16. HotCarNut

    HotCarNut Defender of Reality
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,937
    Likes:
    2,792
    I think you and I have very different opinions of why they're doing a bad job. Unions, at least the ones I've seen/experienced first-hand in the US, lead to dramatically lower productivity and don't provide any wage/benefits improvements on what are provided at non-union plants. The "Us vs Them" mentality that the unions stoke causes billions of losses in internal fights, politics, delays, and lower quality, and it hasn't mattered what industry I've touched them in (Aerospace, Automotive, Steel, Service Workers). Fundamentally, US unions have forgotten that management and union workers are on the same side. It has caused trillions of dollars in offshoring investments, and no, most of those decisions were not due to hourly labor cost savings alone. Everyone looks at total cost to bring quality goods to market, including labor, re-work, warranty, shipping, etc. What does that tell you about union performance in every single one of those areas? Just to highlight, I worked for Rolls-Royce in Indianapolis at their engine plant. Productivity when I left was 26% from the UAW shop.
     
    tlc and page2171 like this.
  17. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    10,310
    Likes:
    21,726
    Union formation is a response to past corporate excesses. Unfortunately, the success of unionization itself has resulted in the levels of corruption we are now seeing.

    As an independent supplier and as a customer, I see a degree of mutual respect from Toyota and Honda I don’t get from domestic automakers.

    Given Detroit’s history, and how a FCA treats dealers and customers, I doubt domestic automakers would treat workers fairly if unions disappeared.
     
  18. HotCarNut

    HotCarNut Defender of Reality
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,937
    Likes:
    2,792
    1. Completely agree - and it goes back to early mafia involvement in unions well before Hoffa
    2. They recognize EVERYONE as key to their success, and respect them accordingly. No "us vs them".
    3. In a free market, they basically HAVE to. Toyota and the foreign non-union plants all pay as well or better than the union plants, especially when you factor out union dues. The seniority system that sees incompetent people clog upward mobility on factory floors rather than allowing truly talented people to rise also contributes to the environment that turns off good people, especially early in their careers.
     
    tlc, aldo90731 and page2171 like this.
  19. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2020
    Messages:
    92
    Likes:
    66
    If that was actually the case, then why do automakers (and other industries) go out of their way to move production to areas (1) that have weaker trade unions compared Canada & the Northern/Western United States? Because they know that they can get away with lower pay, benefits & conditions than they could in a workplace where trade unions are strong.

    Likewise while I cannot directly comment on why the trade unions in your workplaces have failed to deliver better pay & benefits for their members (although I suspect it's because said unions's leadership was crap), I would point out that its easier for an employee to replace the leadership of their trade union compared to replacing the leadership of their employeer.

    (1) Such as China, Mexico & the Southern United States (where Right-To-Work Laws are more common).

    From my personal experence in the world of work, I have found that the "Us vs Them" mentality has often been equally (if not more so) caused by managements focused on quarterly profits above product quality & maintaining good relations with their workforce.

    So while people like myself want to maintain a good relationship with their employers; for that to be possible, it has to require compromise on the side of management as well. Especially when it comes to Pay, Benefits & Product Quality.

    It depends on how one defines as the "same side".

    Now I want to avoid getting too political over this post; what I will say however is that the reason why so much manufacturing has been offshored over the last 40 years has mainly been due to the fact that far too many companies these days put short-term profits above all other factors (no matter the cost), alongside the fact that governments are all too willing to make it possible for said companies to get away with offshoring manufacturing.

    Hence why they are pretty keen to reduce labour costs as much as possible by moving it to areas where they can get away with paying less. Despite the fact it's completely ridiculous that a Mexican or Eastern European (1) gets paid less to do the same about of work & craftsmanship compared to their American, Canadian & British counterparts.

    (1) In other words, they should be paid as much as their counterparts in places such as Canada, the Northern/Western United States & Britain.

    It depends on how one defines "performance" though.
     
    gforce2002 and chcharlie like this.
  20. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2020
    Messages:
    92
    Likes:
    66
    Any organisation that is not being properly being held to account is always vulnerable to corruption

    I suspect that this is due to the fact that Japanese Companies are generally focused on the long-term outlook & their employees welfare when compared to their British & American counterparts.

    The trouble is though; Anglo-American Corporate Culture has (unlike the Japanese) long been unwilling to have both a long-term outlook & to take employee welfare seriously.

    I have read that Toyota Workers in North America have historically had similar salaries to their GM/Ford/FCA counterparts (but pay less in terms of healthcare costs). However the recent agreements between UAW & the Detroit 3 have changed this.

    I agree that this needs to change, both on the shopfloor & in the boardroom.
     
    HotCarNut and aldo90731 like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...
 We are not affiliated with FCA. We make no claims regarding validity or accuracy of information or advice. Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.