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Unifor Negotiations

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by ShawnP, Sep 23, 2020.

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  1. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Free market is proving more illusory with each economic crisis.

    We are getting to a point where “capitalism” is in reality socialism for corporations, by which big business expects to be bailed out with taxpayer dollars every time a downturn hits.
     
  2. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

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    I would also point out that "free market" capitalism has never been possible under any human society & at any point in human history, mainly because there are always those that have a desire to hold as much power & wealth for themselves

    Hence why every time a economy gets deregulated, those types end up exploiting those circumstances and in turn reorganise said ecnonomy for their own benefit.
     
    #22 Chrysler UK, Sep 27, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
  3. HotCarNut

    HotCarNut Defender of Reality
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    Completely agree, and it has to change. It's changed thinking in boardrooms around risk, executive compensation, and lobbying to a ridiculous degree.
     
  4. HotCarNut

    HotCarNut Defender of Reality
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    Free market was never envisioned or designed to prevent the accumulation of wealth. It's designed to allow everyone the opportunity to compete and potentially build wealth. Key words are "compete" and "potentially". After all, how else would people like Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Elon Musk, the Google boys, Jeff Bezos, etc have ever become among the richest on the planet? They didn't come from mega-fortunes, or really any fortunes at all. THAT is free market capitalism.

    I believe the point you were really making was the interference of state agencies in markets, crafting laws, rules, regulations, and enforcement mechanisms that favor one party (or industry) over another. THAT is definitely a huge problem in most capitalist economies, and why politicians, lobbyists, and lawyers are the bane of capitalism everywhere. The irony is that the same political problems & greed have brought down [removed], communist, and monarchical systems. Capitalism & democracy is the only pairing that has survived this long despite all of those factors. Perfect it is NOT.
     
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  5. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    I'd have to disagree, given the success and durability of totalitarian or oligarchical regimes:

    * Russia, following the Soviet Union
    * Most of Eastern Europe
    * Most of the Arab world
    * China
    * Much of Africa
    * All of Europe before the 18th century
    * China for a few thousand years
    * India for a few thousand years

    Meanwhile, democracy seems very fragile:

    * Eastern European nations slipping from democratic republicanism to monarchies
    * Mussolini's Italy
    * Hitler's Germany
    * Periods of Argentina
    * (Nearly) Egypt
    * Palestinians and destruction of Lebanon
    * Turkey, today
    * United States facing serious possibilities of a “no-vote” election, with one party seriously suggesting either (a) electors appointed by state legislators or (b) election of Congress (on rep per state) if they appear to be losing, or appeal to the Supreme Court if they win on “the day” and then appear to start losing on absentee ballots

    It's pretty hard to keep a democratic republic going. Monarchies can succeed despite amazing amounts of greed and misery - North Korea, anyone? (Admittedly not 200 years but hey, look at France until the 18th century...)
     
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  6. HotCarNut

    HotCarNut Defender of Reality
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    Russia is interesting because it disintegrated, in theory is a democracy, but appears to be back to totalitarianism politically (Putin) with a capitalist economy (very similar to China who learned from the USSR's failure). I wouldn't point at the Arab world as their success has been entirely dependent on the relationship of Saudi Arabia with the US, and that is 100% about strategic access to oil. As we become less dependent on fossil fuels, particularly Arabian crude, we'll see if they can actually survive.

    Oligarchies, monarchies, and totalitarian states thrived on control - economically, politically, and most importantly the populace's access to information. That kind of control has become MUCH more difficult with the advent of the internet, and is now virtually impossible as China, Iran, and others are experiencing.

    The treaty of Versailles made the rise of totalitarianism and nationalism virtually assured in Europe after WWI. If we learn any lessons from that, and look at the parallels to today, you cannot take away hope and opportunity from the majority of the population. The working class brought Hitler and Mussolini to power because both promised to "restore Germany and Italy to their pre-WWI glory". People REMEMBERED those times, and yearned for them so hard that they turned a blind eye to the true aims of the respective regimes. I worry about this today, particularly in Europe with the potential collapse of the European union and a very large disaffected population in France, Spain, and the UK. Russia is actively recruiting and funding elements undermining Eastern European democracies in the hopes of re-integrating them into Russia. Irony is that Germany is the most stable of the European majors, and it's only been reunited for less than 30 years. Frightening is an understatement.
     
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  7. aldo90731

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    There. I fixed it for you. ;)

    It is true that capitalism has survived longer than communism. But that in itself is no assurance that it will last forever. No economic system has.

    In fact, chances are capitalism itself will end up replaced one day.

    We can only hope with something better.
     
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  8. aldo90731

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    I wouldn’t call China’s economic system capitalism.

    It is becoming clearer by the day that the Chinese Communist Party wants to controls all aspects of society and ultimately all means of production, with the goal to gain power and global influence for its own benefit.
     
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  9. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Right, China’s system is a definite composite. It's capitalist in the same way Cuba’s system is capitalist — money is put up for production by subordinates.

    How do we definite “capitalist,” exactly? Is Sweden capitalist? Canada? The US? Singapore?

    Ditto communism. I'd argue the Soviet Union was never communist, just another case of totalitarianism + trappings of communism. Kibbutzim in Israel vary, though. Communism within capitalism, probably the only way it's ever practical, and also probably you can find it, historically, long before Marx was every born.

    Democratic republicanism is interesting because it's usually been limited to elites. Also, it does appear to be unstable, especially when combined with capitalism, because the system is so swayed by money, and (in the US, at least) always has been. English “democracy” was limited only to the wealthy for centuries, for that matter. It does seem to work best when there's relative equality of wealth, but that requires a lot of protests and, to be historically accurate, a combination of philosophy and violence to keep it from being (as in the Gilded Age and again today) rich people buying politicians so they can steal tax revenues.
     
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  10. Adventurer55

    Adventurer55 Well-Known Member

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    Basically the same thing here, except it's called the Corporate party.
     
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  11. hmk123

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    Then we need a 6.9L HEMI to replace the 5.7 and a 7.2L to replace the 6.4. :) Power to the people...
     
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  12. 77 Monaco Brougham

    77 Monaco Brougham Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of imperfect economic systems...it should be noted that Mercantilism also is still alive and kicking. One need look no further than the "People's Republic" of China.
     
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  13. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

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    That's what happens when Governments are not willing to curb the worst excesses of Corporate Culture via Regulation & Spending.

    My point was that such forms of Capitalism have no safeguards to prevent such accumulation of wealth, which undermines any attempt to create addtional wealth. In fact I would argue that Social Democratic Governments (that are willing to properly invest & support industry) are more able to develop productive companies & organisations when compared to private investors & finance; who are more focused towards investing in speculation & rent-seeking, mainly because it's more profitable in the short-term.

    It's telling that with an exception to Buffet, all the indviduals listed made their money though the rise of IT in one form of another. A Sector that was only established in its current form thanks to Government Support and has not been around long enough for dynastic control to be established over the various companies in this sector, hence why many of those listed have relatively humble backgrounds.

    My point was that there will always be those who want to have absolute control over power & wealth (and are willing to pay off governments to achieve those goals). So its better to have Govenrment's (which are more able to be elected & held to account by the General Population than a Private Company) hold that supremacy over power & wealth rather than Private Businesses & Individuals.

    However it can only work if Governments are willing to support & aid the various sectors of their Nations Economy (in return for said companies to pay their taxes and offer Good Pay & Conditons for their employees) that are best left in private hands, rather than simply try to directly manage every single sector of the Nations Economy/Society and do so for certain political agendas*

    *There are some sectors of Economy/Society (Education, Healthcare, Utillites, Infrastructure & Public Services for example) that should always be under state control, however there are others (such as the Automobile Industry) that should remain under private hands, but also recieve Government Support and be under Government Regulation.
     
  14. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

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    That's why its important for the Biden Campaign to focus on winning Florida to prevent this situation occuring. Because not only does Trump need to win Florida to have any prospect of winning, but they are also planning to finish the count on election night.

    So if Trump loses Florida on Election Night, it would be a lot harder for him to steal an election.

    Very few of them have survived into the modern era however and the surviving ones are either mere figureheads or are in a position to bribe their population to support them (in the case of the Gulf States & Brunei).

    It wasn't quite what they promised, since Mussolini promised to turn Italy into a "New Roman Empire" while Hitler promised that "The Germans shall rule Europe" (which was a German Political Goal since the 19th Century, its just that the Nazis took that Goal to the very extreme). Otherwise I would agree with that statement.

    I can assure you (as a Brit & European) that Brexit has reduced support for exiting the EU among Mainland European Nations; granted the European Union needs to evolve into a Federal (Social Democratic) State to survive in the long-term, but its short-term future looks ok.

    Likewise even in Britain; a majority where (and still are) opposed to Leaving the EU, hence why Anti-European types resorted to dodgy means to drag us out of the European Union.

    While I would agree that they are trying to do exactly that, it has not been too sucessfull.

    Mainly because the Partition of Germany was imposed by outside powers & was never accepted by either the Federal Republic of Germany ("West Germany"), the German Democratic Republic ("East Germany") or either of their populations. Hence why they where so quick to reunify as soon as the Russians gave up on maintaining the Iron Curtain.
     
  15. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    Thread locked due to politics.
     
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