Hello, Allpar Forums member or visitor! If you were a member, you would not see this ad!

Register or log in at the top right of the page...

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Volvo Giving Up on Internal Combustion Engine

Discussion in 'Auto News & Rumors' started by RobbieAG, Jul 5, 2017.

  1. Lampredi

    Lampredi Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    938
    Likes:
    586
    That's more on the legislative side of things, isn't it? Because innovation through legislation doesn't work.
     
  2. Muther

    Muther Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Messages:
    3,532
    Likes:
    2,993
    You have to ask yourself what is driving you he legislation. In California, that legislation was driven by the citizenry. Folks got so fed up with smog so thick you could not see the building down the street, and the only solution they saw was to legislate a solution. Bing bang boom, forty-fifty years later and SoCal is an entirely new place. I California at least, I strongly believe a lot of the motivation is being driven by the voters.
     
    GasAxe and Dave Z like this.
  3. Muther

    Muther Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Messages:
    3,532
    Likes:
    2,993
    I would assume not. If designed in from the get go, it should not be that expensive.
     
  4. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
    Staff Member Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2001
    Messages:
    32,125
    Likes:
    14,556
    Those floating solar islands are a great idea. Not cost effective, I imagine, but China is awash in money, and they make more sense than building more airports in the middle of nowhere and hoping someone shows up someday to use them — or, as Brazil does, building massive stadiums in the middle of nowhere and then abandoning them after a few games. Or as we do, really, building stadiums at taxpayer expense for private sports teams that get tax breaks as well... anyway, getting back to the point, I would imagine they reduce ocean warming, which is good since that has all sorts of nasty side effects. (I'd guess blocking the sun from large swaths of ocean has its own issues.)

    Anyway, yes, it's incredible what happens now. I never thought I would fit a computer into my pocket that could run rings around my old Mac Plus, which at the time was a marvel of miniaturization.

    I grew up when “transistor radio” was a horribly tinny monophonic thing and now you get full stereos with fine sound (albeit at headphone power) in single chips that fit into pocket supercomputers.

    I grew up when we all thought 425 horsepower was the peak of speed and now we yawn at 485 horsepower... a consistent 485 horsepower that doesn’t disappear if you don’t keep it perfectly tuned.
     
    ScramFan and jerseyjoe like this.
  5. Lampredi

    Lampredi Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    938
    Likes:
    586
    Motivation to legislate, surely, but if there were no technological progress, no amount of motivation (or legislation) would make any difference.
     
  6. Muther

    Muther Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Messages:
    3,532
    Likes:
    2,993
    It is a slippery slope. All legislation is a standard for human behavior. Think of legislation like HTML, or RS-323/485, or CAN, or ATSM, ANSI or a thousand other standards.

    Legislation exists to get humans living in large groups to adhere to the same standards so that everyone can manage to live together in relative ease. The standards (themselves) don't generate the technology, but the standards (or legislation) can provide an atmosphere where the technology can thrive where without the standard (or legislation) the tech would not be pursued.

    Neither standards or legislation is required for tech to develop, but many times they can provide a path for it to be developed.
     
    Prabhjot likes this.
  7. Lampredi

    Lampredi Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    938
    Likes:
    586
    On the flipside, however, you get things such as Dieselgate when the standards are too hard and/or too expensive to comply with from a technological standpoint.
     
  8. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,052
    Likes:
    1,759
    Not a good example... VW chose to cheat. It turns out that they were cheating in Europe too, where the regulations were loose enough for other makers to comply with. Their hubris and their lack of expertise with diesel engines led to Dieselgate. Those manufacturers (BMW, GM, Ford, FCA) who could have, but chose not to, launch diesel cars in the US knew better than VW group.
     
    Prabhjot likes this.
  9. RobbieAG

    RobbieAG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Likes:
    29
    They'll need to solve more than the cost issue. If they can't get the charging time to where it's similar to filling up with petrol, EVs will continue to be niche vehicles serving as urban commuters.
     
    Doug D likes this.
  10. Muther

    Muther Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Messages:
    3,532
    Likes:
    2,993
    I somewhat agree/disagree, I don't thing the problem was laws that were to strict. I think that the problem with Dieselgate was lax enforcement, and poorly written law, not overly burdensome or too strict law.

    The people designing it were also testing it, and they were on their honor. And, well, they got caught lying. FCA got caught "teaching for the test".

    If there had been some sort of oversight, then dieselgate never would have happened.
     
    Prabhjot likes this.
  11. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    2,481
    Likes:
    2,626
    In European Union look at the differences between Euro 6 (passenger cars and LCV) rules and Euro VI rules (trucks).
    You'll see that who wrote the rules knew what they were writing, at least technically.
    For Euro 6 rules instead the grey zones where left deliberately. And is very easy to know who dictated the rules, at least if one knows or is interested in how laws/rules are made inside European Union. That one is Germany, with their automotive industry, in particular also their emission control system suppliers Bosch and Continental.
     
    Prabhjot likes this.
  12. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie Valued Member
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,440
    Likes:
    1,263
    ou are here: Home » Future Product » Frankfurt auto show »

    Volkswagen to spend billions more on electric cars in search for mass market

    VW raises e-car rollout plans to 80 models from 30 by 2025
    Reuters
    [​IMG]
    Volkswagen's first EV on the new MEB platform is expected to be based on the I.D. Crozz concept.

    Send us a Letter
    Have an opinion about this story? Click here to submit a Letter to the Editor, and we may publish it in print.

    FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen is stepping up its shift to electric cars and plans to invest more than $24 billion in zero-emission vehicles by 2030 to challenge several automakers aiming to create a mass market for EVs.

    The world's largest automaker by sales said on Monday it would roll out 80 new electric cars across its multi-brand group by 2025, up from a previous goal of 30, and wanted to offer an electric version of each of its 300 group models by 2030.

    The German company had previously said it would spend more than $12 billion by 2025 on a move to electric vehicles.

    Until it admitted two years ago to cheating on U.S. diesel emissions tests, Volkswagen had been slow to embrace electric cars and self-driving technology.

    But the emissions scandal has prompted a strategic shift, while major advances in batteries and a global fight against pollution in the wake of VW's scandal have raised pressure on carmakers to speed up development of zero-emission alternatives.

    "A company like Volkswagen must lead, not follow," CEO Matthias Mueller told reporters on the eve of the Frankfurt auto show as he unveiled the group's "roadmap E."

    "We are setting the scene for the final breakthrough for e-mobility."

    VW's so-called I.D. model will compete with Tesla's least expensive car, the new $35,000 base-price Model 3 sedan, for mass-market buyers. The Chevy Bolt at $36,620 and the redesigned Nissan Leaf at $30,875 also are key competitors in that space. Ford and BMW also offer EVs, with others -- including Toyota -- lining up to follow suit.

    VW's electric car offensive mirrors pre-Frankfurt show announcements by German rivals.

    Daimler said on Monday its Mercedes-Benz luxury brand planned to offer electric motors for all models by 2022, though cautioned the shift to lower-margin electric cars required extra cost savings.

    BMW, which launched the i3 electric car in 2013, said on Thursday it was readying its factories to mass produce electric vehicles by 2020 and pledged to have 12 purely battery-powered models on offer by 2025.

    Growing restrictions and charges for diesel and gasoline vehicles are spurring the rise of electric cars, although analysts say big investments in charging points and power networks will be needed to serve a mass market.

    China, the world's biggest automotive market, is studying when to stop the production and sale of combustion engine vehicles, echoing moves by Britain and France, which have announced bans for conventional cars from 2040.

    To cover the needs of "roadmap E," VW has started a tendering process for the selection of partners in China, Europe and North America to provide battery cells and related technology worth more than $60 billion.

    Tesla in January started mass production of lithium-ion battery cells at its own gigafactory in Nevada, which is aiming for annual battery production capacity of 35 gigawatt-hours.

    VW said it would require capacity equivalent to at least four gigafactories to power the vastly increased fleet of electric cars.

    Mueller told Reuters TV that VW had no need to sell assets to fund the electric car offensive.

    ‎"No, not at all," he said. "Although we have suffered financially in the past two years because of the diesel issue, we are positioned well enough in financial terms to be able to shoulder these investments without problems."

    VW's electric car program will center on the new MEB modular platform developed by its namesake brand, which will underpin all mass-market electric vehicles from across the group. A Golf-style compact model with about 600 kilometers (373 miles) of driving range is due to be built in 2020.

    Automotive News contributed to this report.
     
  13. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie Valued Member
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,440
    Likes:
    1,263
    You are here: Home » OEM » Mercedes-Benz »
    Mercedes will cut costs to fund EVs
    September 11, 2017 @ 5:05 am
    Christiaan Hetzner[​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Daimler will launch the electric EQ-C based on the Generation EQ concept, shown, in 2019.

    Send us a Letter
    Have an opinion about this story? Click here to submit a Letter to the Editor, and we may publish it in print.

    FRANKFURT -- Mercedes-Benz said the upcoming launch of its EQ electric vehicle family could mean it may not meet its profit margin target in the midterm. The automaker said it will launch a $4.8 billion cost-cutting program to counteract the expected pressure on earnings.

    Mercedes CFO Frank Lindenberg said the brand would trade off some of its profits in the short term in exchange for higher sales of electric cars to meet increasingly stringent emissions regulations in the future.

    “We will still be aiming at 10 percent return on sales, but we have to be prepared for a corridor of 8 percent to 10 percent,” Lindenberg told analysts Monday.

    The comments confirm suspicions by a bearish capital market that traditional carmakers with a legacy combustion engine business will suffer decreasing profitability during a transition to a zero-emissions future.

    Daimler’s flagship passenger car brand estimates up to 25 percent of its luxury sedans, coupes and utility vehicles will be electric by 2025, including the upcoming EQ-C midsize utility that debuts in 2019.

    Roughly three-quarters of these EVs will substitute more profitable combustion engine versions, Lindenberg said.

    The electric vehicles "will have lower margins at least in the beginning of their life cycle even though we are confident we can close the gap," he said. "Let's assume that they have about half the margin of an ordinary internal combustion engine car, so from a margin perspective obviously, we will have a lot of pressure."

    Mercedes will introduce its third “Fit for Leadership” efficiency program, dubbed FfL 4.0, which referring to the planned savings. Completed at the end of 2014, the first program was designed to cut costs by around $2.4 billion while the second “FfL Next Stage” had no quantitative target.

    Mercedes widened its first-half operating margin to 10 percent, up from 6.7 percent a year ago, when results were burdened by special effects such as the Takata recall.
     
  14. Powdered Toast Man

    Powdered Toast Man Move along, nothing to see here

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Messages:
    1,930
    Likes:
    970
    Sorry folks, you can call this a fad all you want but when China forces EV's then the automakers will follow suit. It's too large a market to ignore.

    Based on the recent market trend I'm going to speculate that the current Hemi will be the last generation of the large ICE for FCA. Any automaker not investing heavily in EV development across their product lines right away is going to look like a relic in short order.
     
    Fast Eddie likes this.
  15. 77 Monaco Brougham

    77 Monaco Brougham Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2017
    Messages:
    667
    Likes:
    963
    What I'm fearful of right now is that the technology implementation / improvement may be moving along faster than FCA's ability to catch up.

    Not enough bad things can happen to whoever at Damn Liar.......OOPS!.....er....Daimler......decided to sell off GEM!
     
  16. pt006

    pt006 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,269
    Likes:
    476
    Tesla just set up an electric fast charging station in Boston and one other city. ------ 22 cents per KWHr.
     
  17. Lee N. Burns

    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Messages:
    579
    Likes:
    747
    But that situation no longer exists in SoCal. The generation that remembers is already returning their own, personal carbon to the atmosphere. There is nothing motivating this anymore besides 1%'ers who have figured a way to monetize fear with a new religion.

    Of course I'm not saying they won't be successful with this tactic, but it doesn't motivate like actually seeing the problem.
     
  18. somber

    somber 370,000 miles
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes:
    1,302
    I just hope the $7500 tax credit gets thrown out before VW can get these cars to market. It sickens me to think of this cheating company getting subsidized by my tax dollars.
     
  19. Lampredi

    Lampredi Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    938
    Likes:
    586
    This tax credit (and similar schemes in other parts of the world) should never have been introduced in the first place, and should be discontinued ASAP, regardless of what VW does and when.
     
    dakota21 and somber like this.
  20. vipergg

    vipergg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2002
    Messages:
    2,358
    Likes:
    506
    I'm sitting here thinking what the heck would have happened in Florida if you had all electric cars when they were trying to get out. Yes they had some gas issues but what would have happened if everyone needed a charge to get out of harms way . People sitting around for 2 hours recharging would not have worked .
     

Share This Page

Loading...
Terms of use and privacy policy. We are not affiliated with FCA. We make no claims regarding validity or accuracy of information or advice. Custom material copyright © 2001-2017 Allpar LLC.