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VW Dieselgate & AN: Winterkorn out: Door open for Marchionne?

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by tryphon, Sep 22, 2015.

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  1. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Nor should it. VW/Audi (notice how I always add in the real profit maker!) is banned from selling the afflicted cars. The punishment is the fine. Should it be jail time? Maybe but then we run the risk of the Japanese system of the designated scapegoat.
     
  2. Rick Anderson

    Rick Anderson Well-Known Member

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    We are in general agreement. The last part of your statement, quoted, ummm, again I don't disagree, I'm just NOT as optimistic as you.

    The popular phrase, "A Bridge to Far" is exactly about organizations that have a great tract record of succeeding against the odds, assuming they'll do it again when they are given an overly ambitious goal that is very unlikely to succeed.

    Honestly, if the system works, all the emotional rhetoric and grand standing will fall by the way side, the manufacturers will either do it, OR, the regulators/legislators will get enough legitimate complaints and data to review and revise a standard if it truly is "A Bridge to Far". Proper oversight, means NOT only holding industry accountable, it is also revising the standards if they truly are impossible, impractical, undue burdens, ineffective or counter-productive.
    As much as I do NOT like dealers, they can make a very legitimate point that lots of innocent people have been hurt by VW, including those in the industry that had nothing to do with the decisions that lead to it, banning VW from selling cars is just hurting those people even more than they've been hurt already.

    No, I am NOT arguing that we can't hold VW accountable, because it would hurt dealership owners and employees that are innocent in the scandal. But, it is a legitimate argument to NOT go to far in penalizing VW, and more than dealerships will be hurt if we demand VW just shutter it doors and slink back to Germany; so we better make sure that is a fair punishment if it we go down that road.
     
    #422 Rick Anderson, Sep 30, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
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  3. CherokeeVision

    CherokeeVision Well-Known Member

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    Forgive me if the answer is somewhere in this thread and I have missed it.

    How did all these cars pass sniffer tests in the states that have them?
    Wouldn't putting out 40 times what is allowed been caught?

    My county in Texas does not have sniffer tests for inspections so I am not familiar with the process.
     
  4. TheMan

    TheMan What color are the clouds in your world?
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    Are you 2illing to hold Chrysler to thatgatcsame standard?their zhands aint lilly whiteusinesd eitherhin this ki
    ndof dirty it
     
    #424 TheMan, Sep 30, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
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  5. Moparian

    Moparian Well-Known Member

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    The cars could tell when they were being tested for emissions.
     
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  6. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    And, I don't know for diesels, but many times an OBDII car is not ran on the sniffer for an emission test.
     
  7. Rick Anderson

    Rick Anderson Well-Known Member

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    The VW's software detected when anything was plugged into the OBDII port, and when that happened, it switched into a mode that would pass emissions, once the device was removed from the OBDII port, it went back to normal mode that didn't pass emissions, but provided better performance and fuel economy and also made the Urea cartridges last longer (more convenience and lower cost for the owners).

    That is what little we understood from what was reported. The EPA and many states, plug into the OBDII port to monitor data from the engine sensors and computer as they perform sniff test of the exhaust. States that just plug into the OBDII port and check what the engine computer reports for emissions status would be fooled also (without a sniff test), because as explained before, OBDII running in the car engine controller/computer, just monitors that everything is working normally, it can't actually measure emissions.

    The systems works by certifying the design by the EPA with a sniff test, and thus all cars of that design should be in compliance with emissions as long as everything is working normally, OBDII will tell if something isn't working normally and thus emissions must be higher. States that re-inspect for emissions can do their own sniff test if they want, but its pretty darn reliable to just check the OBDII report from the cars engine controller, it will tell you everything is working normally thus emissions should be good, OR there is something wrong that will raise emissions and thus fail the vehicle.

    Apparently there are NO states in the U.S. that perform a sniff test on NOx and NOT also plug into the OBDII port. Based on what has been reported, a VW Diesel would have failed that a sniff test done without plugging something into the OBDII port.
     
    #427 Rick Anderson, Sep 30, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
  8. Rick Anderson

    Rick Anderson Well-Known Member

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    Are you willing to hold Chrysler to that same standard? Their hand ain't lilly white in this either, their kind of dirty too?

    Well, I think that is only fair? Which point, the bridge too far analogy or slamming VW more than is deserved hurts others that are innocent?

    If all or most of the manufacturers try but can't meet a doubling of the CAFE standards, I think the regulators should revise them for everyone. And I'd agree that it would be fair that the manufacturers that reached the CAFE goal while the others didn't deserve some sort of reward, otherwise its like penalizing them when they made it just to see it revised for all the others that didn't make it.

    VW should be held accountable, but IMO banning them from selling cars in the future in the U.S. is going overboard. I'd say the same about Chrysler.
     
  9. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    The car is plugged in during the tests, even when a sniffer is used, to lessen the chance a dishonest test technician will put the sniffer in the exhaust of a different vehicle to get a failing car through the test.
     
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  10. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Yes. Which is odd because it wasn't long ago they did no OBDII testing and every car had the thingie up its tailpipe in my state, some governors “cut costs” by eliminating that.

    I agree and most likely that will happen, keeping in mind they have huge loopholes.
     
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  11. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    I can already see a way to game that ;)
     
  12. 68RT

    68RT Well-Known Member

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    One interesting bit today was that the last few years they had gone to DEF BUT in order to get the tank to last the 10k between oil changes, they had set the system to be off part time. Sounds like something that might be an easy fix. However, they might have to install a larger tank or have the customer fill up his tank between oil changes. That will not make for happy customers. Does not address models without DEF.

    Side note: How does Ford get away with the Blue/Grey smoke coming out of their tailpipe?
     
  13. TheMan

    TheMan What color are the clouds in your world?
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    Asnk jTE what went on at jeep truck engineering duiring the time vipers original testing. Weent oninth efall of 1992 and the book that was published in the fuel systems lab there by an engineer that documentedn jeep testing issues.He should remember.i stillhave my copy around here somewhere.
     
    #433 TheMan, Sep 30, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
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  14. JavelinAMX

    JavelinAMX Well-Known Member

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    The tailpipe tester would cause back-pressure enough to sense changes, yes?

    Perhaps the software merely assumed a differential in flow warranted the switcheroo to the good emissions performance loop. Then when the pressure falls to near normative levels the error trap ceases its warning state and it switches back to the 'VW Normative Mode'.

    It seems to me that tailpipe emissions tests ought to have the active engine emptying its exhaust into an airtight chamber of a given cubic-meter capacity. Sense and measure the final captured exhaust in its ambient mix rather than in concentration within the exhaust pipe environment. No back pressure - just cubic yards/cubic meters of allegedly breathable air. It might be a better mimic of organic lungs. I'm aware of the reason behind the in-pipe sampling/measuring process.
     
  15. burtstwins

    burtstwins Well-Known Member

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    There isn't actually a need to be connected to the OBDII to know that the car is under test,
    Lack of movement of all 4 wheels ( Antilock brakes have sensors on all 4 wheels)
    Traction controls turned off
    Lack of movement of steering wheel( usually locked in position under test)
    And these are just things that come to mind under actual test
     
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  16. AC TC

    AC TC Well-Known Member

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    A diesel must be under load to make nox, a simple sniffertest without a larger load on the engine will be fine.
     
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  17. Jaxyaks

    Jaxyaks Active Member

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    I'm looking forward to the flood of dirt cheap low mileage vehicles that are gonna flood the market, folks that live in areas with no emissions testing required can enjoy cheap low mileage cars. There are already 4 times as many on craigslist now than a month ago"...
     
    #437 Jaxyaks, Oct 1, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
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  18. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    WARNING - Any attempts to discuss politics (as in the linked article) here on Allpar will result in those posts being removed.
    If you wish to comment on the political aspect of the lined article, find another venue to express those opinions.
     
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  19. Medicin-Man

    Medicin-Man Active Member

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    Actually, politics is not the most important aspect of the article. In the end, it’s about long-term prospects of diesels. I think that my opinion on this is pretty clear. See the part with Mercedes-Benz. If it’s deemed too political, then remove the post and accept my most sincere apology.
     
  20. TheMan

    TheMan What color are the clouds in your world?
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    No politics on allpar. Donot do it or you will be removed pwrmanently. This is the rule and has been for years.
     
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