AF: VW Dieselgate & AN: Winterkorn out: Door open for Marchionne? | Page 23 | Allpar Forums
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VW Dieselgate & AN: Winterkorn out: Door open for Marchionne?

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by tryphon, Sep 22, 2015.

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  1. Medicin-Man

    Medicin-Man Active Member

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    Once again, I didn’t mean the article to be about politcs. And your opinion would be very appreciated. I wrote that gasoline engines without direct injection may be quite fine. So, am I correct or not? I mean the carbon build-up etc. Fiat is actually among the very few automakers that haven’t adopted direct injection on a mass scale yet. Having said that, FCA may have a point that their cars are compliant.
     
  2. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    Never the less, there are several topics covered in your opinion piece that CANNOT be allowed in discussions here.
    I suggest you provide an alternative forum for comments on your opinion piece as discussion many of the subjects you bring up will get posts deleted here.
    Intention or not, your article is VERY politically charged.
     
  3. TheMan

    TheMan What color are the clouds in your world?
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    Fca is this industries joke . Alfa.is a pipedream. Lancia is no betteroff. fboth are poorly managed andd floundering in the surf.
     
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  4. Medicin-Man

    Medicin-Man Active Member

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    Okay. My sincere apologies, once again. I can’t delete the original post, unfortunately. By the way, what is your opinion on the Mercedes-Benz’s move? Actually, they won’t be the only company following the same path. Whatever the outcome will be, diesels will probably stay in commercial vehicles and heavy-duty ones. Here in Europe, very few cars feature a gasoline engine, even though it would be more sensible. It’s also a marketing issue. A company only advertises lower fuel consumption and longer range, for instance. Well, many consumers wouldn’t care much about emissions. On the other hand, diesels are often used in a way they aren’t suitable for (city hopping etc.). Having said that, I think M-B is doing the right thing in the end.
     
  5. Medicin-Man

    Medicin-Man Active Member

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    I have my own doubts about the Alfa Romeo comeback too, but the mismanagement of both brands is fairly obvious. By the way, I still think Lancia should be transformed into an EV make. Yes, EVs aren’t mature enough yet, but they could be. And Chrysler brand would also utilize a few all-electric models in its line-up, right? Emissions might be the greatest burden FCA will have going forward. Hellcats are fine, so are many other recent products. But small cars aren’t going to offset the less efficient siblings any more. Fiat used to be the greenest automaker in Europe, but it could be put down to the mere fact that it focused on small cars. Having an EV make in the portfolio is starting to make sense.
     
  6. Rick Anderson

    Rick Anderson Well-Known Member

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    Cost vs Benefit, "if" the OBDII concept is working correctly you've arguably got a better testing scenario than a periodic controlled conditions test. If the car's design is certified to be within emission standards, the OBDII compliant engine controller will constantly monitor and self-test the vehicle to make sure it is operating properly to stay within emission standards, and report itself if it does NOT.

    Everything has advantages/disadvantages and relying on just checking the computer, could have drawbacks, BUT many states have concluded its an effective way to ensure emissions compliance at a low cost.
    I can remember seeing a video clip of EPA testing and they had huge collapsible plastic bags they were collecting the exhaust in, many in a row like an accordion, seem to be exactly what your suggesting.

    All the more argument for using the OBDII concept for compliance though. The EPA does a certification of the design, doing those very sophisticated and expensive tests to "properly and accurately" measure the emissions. Once certified, the vehicle itself is constantly monitoring and self-testing itself for anything that would change the original emission properties, effectively and cheaply, in all conditions. All the states need to do to enforce compliance is to read the emission status from the OBDII port.

    Any system will have advantages/drawbacks and can be gamed or cheated, VW found a way to cheat the OBDII system effectively.

    Keep in mind, some of the emissions are NOT a problem out of the exhaust pipe or evaporating out of the car for breathability for anyone near or in the vehicle, some of the emissions are problem when they accumulate in the environment and interact with weather to create things like Acid Rain or Smog. I think NOx and Evaporative emissions are examples of those. I don't think those emissions are really much of a danger to people in or around the cars, they become a problem later as they contribute to other pollution phenomenon, so they need to be controlled as well. Doesn't change what you've said, just adding that addition point.
     
    #446 Rick Anderson, Oct 1, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  7. TheMan

    TheMan What color are the clouds in your world?
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    No chrysler doesnt need any evs. Jeep has one comingand has nothingvtobdo withmm they arent involved at all .
     
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  8. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    EV sales are not going to revive a brand. In the U.S., EVs sell for one of two reasons:
    1) A state requires a certain percentage of EVs be sold there, look at California and how Fiat loses a large amount of money selling the 500e there because they have to sell them to sell other cars.
    2) A state heavily subsidizes the cost, like Georgia did ($5k in incentives making a Leaf almost free to lease for two years). Now the $5k is gone, as is the market for the Leaf. Leaf sales have plummeted and Nissan is "bribing" (incentivizing is probably a better word) owners to buy the off-lease Leafs with $7000 of the residual prices in the lease.
    The problem with hybrids, EVs and diesels are this: When gasoline car mileage was lower and gas was expensive, the alternatives looked good. Gasoline cars have made such advances the additional mileage and gas has dropped in price, margins for hybrid and dielse have shrunk so people are less willing to pay for that tech.
    Plus an EV is not a zero emissions vehicle. In most cases it is a remote emissions vehicle as little electric power comes from solar, wind, ets. It's mostly coal and natural gas burnt somewhere else.
     
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  9. Rick Anderson

    Rick Anderson Well-Known Member

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    NOT likely, you can expect Fed and State gov to track these vehicles and make sure they are brought into compliance. That will make sure the cheat is removed from the software and they will operate like they should, likely with lower mileage, regardless if the owner lives in area with testing or NOT.

    Like suggested already, for those that just won't bring their vehicle for the recall, the vehicle will NOT be allowed to be registered or registration renewed if it hasn't had the VW correction/recall applied to it.
     
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  10. Rick Anderson

    Rick Anderson Well-Known Member

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    We are getting off topic, BUT, Gasoline Direct Injection has a lot of advantages but the drawback is that they produce particulate matter emissions like a diesel. They burn the gas in stratified manner, like diesel, that is what causes the particulate matter. That and its NOT hard to imagine the increased technology and stress on components, a GDI engine has to be done right or it could be a warranty/reliability nightmare, that might also be a reason why all manufacturers don't follow suit with the others right away, you do it [wrong] and you'll just end up sorry.
     
    #450 Rick Anderson, Oct 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2015
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  11. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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  12. Rick Anderson

    Rick Anderson Well-Known Member

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    Which means a state would need a very expensively equipped inspection station to test it properly.

    I don't know if OBDII applies to diesel, I'm assuming it has at least some sort of equivalent standard. But again, the EPA does a very expensive test that includes all that and certifies the design. Then the OBDII compliant engine controller takes over from there, it will catch anything on the vehicle that would change the emissions and report it. So a state, to ensure compliance just has to check the OBDII emission status through the port. NOT PERFECT, sure, but nothing is and its effective and lower cost for everyone.

    I can remember lots of stories and cheats that owners did to pass state emission sniffer tests as well. Gas additives being sold to reduce the emissions, etc... Any system will have advantages/drawbacks, and they can be gamed and cheated. VW figured out a way to cheat the OBDII system.
     
  13. Mike V.

    Mike V. Mopar-nac The Moderator

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    Multiple posts were removed for politics last night. Please follow the advice of the Valiant67 and Bob_Sheaves and stop with posting political opinions on this topic.

    If you see a post that you feel needs to be moderated hit the REPORT button or PM me or any of the Moderation/Admin staff.

    Thank you

    Mike
     
    #453 Mike V., Oct 1, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  14. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Anyone can figure out a way to cheat. Most automakers know that cheating will result in bad things eventually. It takes a lot of arrogance to think you will never be caught.

    Now VW is facing fines, bans, recalls, etc. around the world.

    It is not just the United States. It is not just one government agency they cheated. All the politics cited earlier ignore the fact that Volkswagen also appears to have cheated the EU including Germany and France; South Korea; China; Japan; Canada; and every other country that limits emissions.
     
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  15. Mike V.

    Mike V. Mopar-nac The Moderator

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    JavelinAMX,

    Your personal political opinions for the EPA do not matter, the emissions rules are the emissions rules and all vehicles sold in the US are expected to meet emissions regulation for 120,000 miles of life currently and up to 150,000 miles for 2017 and beyond. Debating the value or necessity of the EPA here is not acceptable.

    If you want to discuss the following, like the others in this thread, you are more than welcome:
    • Discussion regarding how testing is done and how VW went around the testing
    • Discussion regarding the resolution of the problem
    • Discussion regarding FCA's use of Diesel engines
    • Discussion regarding future engine usage by FCA
    • Discussion regarding new information pertaining directly to the topic
    • Discussion regarding legal ramifications the automaker(s) in question could face
    Otherwise your posts will continue to be moderated.

    Mike
     
    #455 Mike V., Oct 1, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
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  16. Jaxyaks

    Jaxyaks Active Member

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    Probably so, but I have seen a 10 fold increase in the number of TDI's for sale on Craigslist in the last week. Last month there were usually 10-20 for sale at any given time, now there are over 100 available, and I am going to bet you can do some pretty good price negotiations on them. I highly doubt that any kind of nation wide do not register notice would ever be able to be enforced, so now would be the time to buy if you don't have to worry about things like emissions inspections.
     
  17. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Seriously? You mean because of states' rights or some such? You may be right but what states are you seeing this in? I would suspect the majority of VW diesel sales are in states that would not block such an effort.
     
  18. Mike V.

    Mike V. Mopar-nac The Moderator

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    I completely disagree. Many States are joining in lawsuits against Volkswagen and in Texas, for instance, inspection paperwork for a vehicle is required to renew vehicle registration. Don't have the paperwork? No renewal. It would be very simple for State DOTs to flag all vehicle registrations per county and require proof of repairs as part of the proof of inspection for yearly registration renewals.

    Mike
     
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  19. Jaxyaks

    Jaxyaks Active Member

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    Because they are just not organized enough, those data bases are not wired together, to bring them all up to spec etc will cost a ton of money and time etc that I just cant see happening on a nation wide scale, unless they are completely taking every one of them off the road. Car manufacturers have enough trouble being able to tell who has or has not had a recall done (fca example) much less adding nation wide dmv reporting, revoking registrations etc. All the laws and procedures for Vehicle registration are different across the country. Why would a DMV go to the trouble of doing this when it doesen't matter to them whether it will pass emissions or not? If it was a safety issue I could see going to the expense, for emissions probably not. They are not that organized, it would take years to even put the things in to place to deal with it. Heck, you can revoke a license or registration in one state and not even be able to tell it has been revoked in another now. Every state does not have agreements with each other to share or enforce these things now, and that is for criminal suspensions, if they won't do it for that, they are not going to do it for dirty emissions.

    Georgia is one example, only a handful of counties require emissions testing the rest it doesen't matter what you run as far as registration is concerned. I am pretty sure there are alot more states that don't require emissions that do as well
     
  20. Jaxyaks

    Jaxyaks Active Member

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    That's one area in one state, yes several will require it, but not all and if you live in an area that won't, you can get a great deal on a TDI
     
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