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W-series Power Wagon Clutch questions.

Discussion in 'Power Wagon' started by Volunteer, Jun 19, 2015.

  1. Volunteer

    Volunteer Well-Known Member

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    I am still seeking replacement clutch parts for the 1968 W100 truck with the (OEM) NP-435 tranny with the (OEM) course-spline input shaft. ALL the listings from suppliers and specialty shops have indicated that the MOPAR (Sweptline) trucks between about 1962 and 1993-ish. ALL used a fine-spline input and, according to 'those in the know' - (on Sweptline.org), this is incorrect. Supposedly, in 1969, the input changed to fine-spline and the P.P. to diaphragm and actuation to 'linkage'. Anyone concur or deny this? My (well-used) disc is the correct 11-inch with the 10-spline (one-inch) hole. Plus, the P.P. has to be of the Borg and Beck style - as correctly used with the hydraulic actuation system - and NOT of the diaphragm style. I may be 'relegated' to finding a clutch rebuilder but hesitate to deal out of my province - let alone out of my country, and would much prefer NEW parts. There are too many issues with (cross-border) shipping and taxes but that is another (long) story - so I will spare all of you the gory details.
    So, having said this much - - - IS there anyone in BC, or at least in Canada, who has info about a LINK to a source for the (apparently rare) course-splined disc? It's getting near the 'crunch time' with the T-case ready to go in - - etc. Thanks.
     
  2. dana44

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    There have to be some kind of parts numbers on the parts so you can replace them with identical parts. Unless you have owned the truck since new, I would assume someone replaced the transmission at some point in its life and fine or course spline didn't matter. Chrysler products have been up there for a very long, long time and matching up the numbers directly to the product name should not be any more difficult to locate than in the States. http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/np435_overhaul_kit.html
    This might, might, might help. If they have rebuild kits, they have clutches and pressure plates, too.
     
    #2 dana44, Jun 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2015
  3. ImperialCrown

    Level III Supporter

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    The input shafts shown are all 17 tooth, but lengths vary.
    I did use a local clutch/brake rebuilder to reline and rebuild the clutch disc, plate and shoes on the Studebaker and was satisfied with the results. They even threw in a plastic disc centering tool.
    http://www.rochesterclutch.com/
     
  4. Volunteer

    Volunteer Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the suggestions. I can get a clutch kit - ie. www.partsmonkey.com for $208. (CDN) and you guys in USA can order same kit for $100. LESS. Okay, that sounds easy, however, the listed clutch kit consists of Borg and Beck (3 stamped-steel fingers), two pilot bushings, a completed T.O. bearing AND the (incorrect) fine-spline disc. I will say again that the (OEM) NP-435 tranny has the (one-inch dia.) 10-spline disc. Even Napa has incorrect information. Also, if you go to www.novak-adapt.com and then scroll down left side (Knowledge) until you see 'Transmissions' and 'point' and 'click' on NP-435, the history of said tranny is discussed. It plainly states that the DODGE versions ALL used the fine (23-spline) Input shaft. The www.sweptline.org members in the know are adamant in saying that the 1962 thru 1968 (-435's) in fact had a course-spline input. It was changed to fine-spline for the 1969 model year. If I dispute or question this 'fact', the members are quick to jump on me - ie: "don't believe everything you read - (etc.)".
    I got plenty of suggestions of where to go (to get my course-splined disc) but they all involved 'rebuilders' - ie: www.hrclutch.com.
     
    #4 Volunteer, Jun 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2015
  5. dana44

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  6. Volunteer

    Volunteer Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for response, (Ed/Dana). I fell into the same 'trap' when I assumed the inputs for both tranny versions were the same diameter - - and they are not. I read the part where it states that Ford's input was 1-1/16" diameter - - but it does not state what Dodge's is - - so I of course assumed it was the same.
    But, I have the tranny sitting on garage floor and the (well)-used disc. No excuse for that. It took awhile before one of the Sweptline members 'let me have it' - so to speak. I had even gone so far as to question the masses whether or not a (Ford) clutch would fit (with flywheel, P.P. and input/T.O. bearing. I should have read more and of course taken some measurements. I am just not that familiar with most Dodge truck clutches. Only NP-435 I'd ever worked on was 1980 P.W. and IT had the fine-spline - - - so, I assumed - - - -.
    Supposedly (also), the two tranny versions differ in input length, pilot diameter and retainer/tube diameter (where bearing sleeve slides on). But it all comes down to most of the posted information claiming to support the theory that ALL (Dodge) -435's had fine-splined inputs - - and they clearly don't. I tried many on-line sources and they all concur. Rock Auto, usually my best source for info and part numbers, does NOT even list these parts.
    In the meantime the flywheel is at mach. shop to get surfaced - and the ring gear needs replacing. Anyone know how many teeth??
     
  7. dana44

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    I get what you are saying, and since it is the same tough NP-435, but, are there any numbers or anything stamped on the clutch at all? I understand you have an oddity, or that there was a problem with the transmission and things were machined and altered before you got the truck, who knows at this point, but..... unless there are numbers that can give a part number, I think ImperialCrown is right and you will have to get the clutch resurfaced. I looked at a whole bunch of exploded views of the transmission and I just don't know if part #1, the splined input shaft has the capability of being swapped and if necessary machined to the proper length and pilot bushing sized tip, I don't know. OR, pain in the rear, sure, hate to tear a manual transmission apart and all, but what about getting the fine spline and changing it out? Never hurts to replace an old front bearing on a manual transmission while it is apart. I know it isn't my money (you always remind us of that, LOL), otherwise, resurface the clutch is the other option. If by chance the the parts store has the Ford clutch, you could compare your clutch to it, wouldn't be the first time a part was checked this way. I spent four hours in a warehouse with vernier calipers and a micrometer to match up kingpins for my 39 Nash. Got the diameter and length, had to machine the recess for the set pin, but I found some.
     
  8. Volunteer

    Volunteer Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for update. The Sweptline members who responded all suggested I find a 'rebuilder' and they all used (hrclutch). I am still holding out some hope there is a solution in my 'backyard' - so to speak. There are several 'technical' differences which prevent swapping-in the (wider) Ford input shaft (then order Ford disc) OR to swap in ('69 or later) Mopar input - - - due to different ratios AND bearing config.
    So, if Dodge's used the course spline exclusively thru 1968, I wouldn't exactly call it an oddity - but, having said this, why are most of the 'listings' ignoring this fact?
    You and yours have a fine fathers day.:)
     
  9. dana44

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    The other only solution I could think to do would be find another transmission so she has the proper setup if the resurfaced clutch won't work.

    And you and yours have a fine Father's Day, too!!!
     
  10. Volunteer

    Volunteer Well-Known Member

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    You and yours have fine Independence Day! Happy 4th. to all the U.S.A. members.
    All of us above the Northern border are proud and honored to have you 'next-door'. It would be nice if all other neighboring countries in the world could get along as well as ours' do. But, sadly, it is not a perfect world. Salut and Cheers!
     
  11. Volunteer

    Volunteer Well-Known Member

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    We could start a whole new thread topic entitled "IN A PERFECT WORLD - - - " - and it would likely gather momentum as time passes. But, for now, I will simply let it go as things do improve IF we explore our options and keep up the intensity level.
    So, there I was, examining clutch kit two months ago - when first thing that caught my attention was the incorrect input spline count. That would be reason enough to ship the stuff back - based on assumption again, that I could easily obtain correct kit (disc). Then, after more searching and re-searching I find the (correct) course-spline disc - but at a cost. No matter, it is important component so price is of little concern. Then, I re-order the kit with (incorrect) fine-spline disc - - basically to get the other parts - assuming, yet again, they will fit. I take a look at them and immediately notice that the T.O. bearing is much larger on the truck than the one in the box. Ignorance tells me that the -435 input (tube) is wider across than the -833 (car version). Furthermore, IF the bearing is larger, the plate fingers must be spaced to accommodate the increase in size (diameter). I did NOT pick up on this originally and can only chalk it up as a (very dumb) 'rookie mistake' - but, I am far from being a rookie. No excuse. I simply put too much trust into the various suppliers. But, to my credit, NO one in Sweptline dot org warned me of the plate differences when we bantered about regarding the disc spline configurations. I suppose they (also) assumed that the kits were accurate/identical - except for the course vs fine issue.
    Now, having 'fessed-up', I am back to finding a true truck P.P. - be it at a specialty shop OR on Ebay, etc. Ideas??
    Thanks and now you guys can dry off those tears of laughter.
     
  12. Volunteer

    Volunteer Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if I posted anywhere else already but I ended up re-installing used P.P. I 'restored' the badly worn tips of the three stamped fingers and also re-used the T.O. bearing. The replacement disc is significantly thicker than most other new ones I've ever purchased or installed - at .370" squeezed. I am now at the 'bleeding' stage and it's not working out as it should. I got fluid thru the system and it pumps out the slave (bleeder). There were bubbles coming out seemingly forever but it cleared up - - and still no system pressure. Fork moves only far enough to 'take up the slack'. Should it matter that I did not (pre-) bleed the master cyl. by itself. There were no instructions with my new parts. I know it helps to bleed a (brake) master cyl. prior to connecting it to the system. Ideas? Link to procedure? Thanks in advance. (misc. pictures still in camera - and accumulating).
     
  13. Volunteer

    Volunteer Well-Known Member

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    Well, I seemed to have pretty much solved the (clutch actuation) problem after a little 'soul-searching'. I figured that the only thing left to suspect was the line between the two cylinders. As some of you may already know, I got this truck almost 6 months ago - with everything removed and dumped into boxes and buckets - - dirty, rusty, worn, broken and missing. All I knew about the (1/4") steel line was that it came from front fitting of master cyl. and curved under and back to fire-wall. How it got to slave cyl. was only a mystery. So, the time came to purchase and install the line and I thought it would be 'neat' to have it go upward on firewall and then across just under the flanged over-hang (a few inches below top of f-wall) and then again downward to the slave fitting. I got the tubing, I think it was 48?", and it had correct fittings already attached (with flares on both ends). After carefully shaping, installing and 'purging' the system, I soon realized there was something not quite right. I wasn't about to point finger at brand new (albeit Chinese) cylinders, so, after searching out bleeding instructions, I took notice of the height of my supply line. The way I had fabricated and installed it, the fluid had to move about four inches above the height of master cyl. - before moving horizontally across to right side of firewall. Obviously there cannot be any air in the system for it to work (correctly). Gravity is the key word. So, I drained and blew out the system and removed the line and figured out how to lower it. The original master cyl had only a single fitting - coming out the front. The replacement had two - the front port was plugged off and the line-fitting was attached to bottom-facing port. So, naturally I used that port. All I had to do was turn the line 90 degrees and attach it to front port and that alone lowered the main line to level of m-cyl. The outlet portion had to be re-adjusted to connect to s-cyl. so I made one small 'loop' to take up the extra 12 inches or so of line. I then filled the system again and chased out any air and lo and behold, the fork began to move. I confirmed the clutch disc was releasing by reaching under floor pan to rear (output) of tranny and was able to 'spin' the disc by turning the output flange (in gear). All that is left to do is set up pedal travel and fork-bearing clearance - if need be. Much more to do. Now re-assembling cyl. heads to go back on engine. I did take lots of pics - but still in camera. Thanks for reading this.
     
  14. dana44

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    Doesn't it always seem to be a problem of gravity and little air pockets. Don't worry, isn't the first time bleeding didn't work due to a loop in a line or high spot in a line (water, oil or fluid) causing a problem. Glad you got it figured out, I was out of town a couple weeks, but information after the fact is always best, you hadn't mentioned the line routing or loop earlier may have thrown up flags. Keep at it, almost ready to start from the sounds of it.
     

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