AF: Wagoneer delayed - change of plans, screwup, or what? | Page 18 | Allpar Forums
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Wagoneer delayed - change of plans, screwup, or what?

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by Dave Z, Dec 6, 2016.

  1. redriderbob

    redriderbob Mopar Guru!
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    12,765
    Likes:
    23,203
    It's won't be... both will be based on Ram (DT) platform so they will both be full-size SUVs and larger than Durango and Grand Cherokee. Jeep Grand Wagoneer and Wagoneer will do fine. Wagoneer will be the more affordable version while Grand Wagoneer will be the luxury version, similar to Denali.
     
    Ryan likes this.
  2. BobbiBigWheels

    BobbiBigWheels The "Front-Line" Perspective

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2016
    Messages:
    3,245
    Likes:
    4,876
    So same size, Bob?
     
  3. redriderbob

    redriderbob Mopar Guru!
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    12,765
    Likes:
    23,203
    Very similar size...

    [​IMG]

    Look at the difference in size in the spy photo above... the drawings are to scale per vehicle.
     
    wtxiceman likes this.
  4. ramajama

    ramajama Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2015
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes:
    1,259
    And Bobbi, I read posts in the LR boards "Welcome new owners" subforums from new LR owners that come in from domestics and Japs all the time. A big number come from GC specifically. No one ever seems to say a single bad thing about their GC but they are all happy to make the "step up". Im sure there's some back and forth bandwagon jumpers but I promise that more buyers get stolen from high end domestics and Japs than high end domestics and Japs steal from Lux brands. GC Summit was on our short list, but when I found out I could get a LR for the same money ballpark, it was over for GC in my eyes. GC Summit is nice but you see 4 GCs at every stop sign. There's no exclusivity to it..at all. That plays a big factor in Lux ownership. And no Jeep trim package can change that.
    I took a look at the used car inventory at our local LR dealership. Their non LR used inventory is made up of trade ins, they dont buy cars at auction. There's two very well modded 2014 Wrangler Unlimiteds (Rubicon and Sahara), a couple of Escalades, a Yukon Denali, a RAM 3500 Laramie, a Sequoia Platinum, a Pathfinder, a 4Runner, a few Lexus, Acadia, Cayenne...You get the picture. No GCs right now, but I see them often as I drive by the dealership almost daily. On the other hand, If you try to find a LR/RR at domestic and Jap dealerships, its very slim pickens...But you can find a good selection of used LR/RRs at the local LR dealership ;) Those buyers are loyal. I know we will remain loyal. We'll have at least one LR model in our garage for as long as we are able. Likewise, As long as FCA doesnt go off the reservation, like Ford did and they lost me, I'll continue to own a RAM truck.

    I mean bless ya'lls hearts, :) I know you guys are rooting for the GW and as a FCA fan, I am too since they are going to go ahead and build it. Although I feel its a hugely hard market to crack into and yes, Im pessimistic until they prove me wrong. And regardless of how big a FCA homer we may be, the Jeep GW will never, ever, ever .....EVER be considered a luxury brand in the eyes of luxury brand buyers and it will not take any meaningful sales from LR (Range Rover specifically) Merc, Porsche, Lexus, Infiniti or Escalade. Manley is clearly spitting marketing speak. I don't blame him, I just don't buy it.

    Lets just be realistic about what its going to compete against and where its going to play, thats all. OK?
     
    #344 ramajama, Feb 17, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
    Ruptured Duck likes this.
  5. Ruptured Duck

    Ruptured Duck Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2015
    Messages:
    1,161
    Likes:
    1,802
    personal frame of reference. Have purchased new a 2004 Tahoe and loved everything about it up to the point we sold it with close to 200K on in. Each year the quality (my opinion) has gotten better but at what cost? They are now priced out of what I think I'm willing to pay so they lost a return customer. When the time came we stepped up (again my opinion) to a used BMW X6. Was less money than the GM product with a better feeling. I felt i got a better deal.
    I'm sitting here trying to think what would make me willing to buy a new Wagoneer or Grand Wagoneer over a LR or BMW. Simple answer will be price. Again my opinion. It will take some time for the Jeep brand to move to that level.

    Want to make sure everyone knows that I'm not dealing with facts. Rather looking at it as a possible purchaser. Logic sometimes cannot be rationalized ... :D
     
    Zagnut27 and GasAxe like this.
  6. redriderbob

    redriderbob Mopar Guru!
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    12,765
    Likes:
    23,203
    I agree with you. That's why some of us, wait two years to get a vehicle at a large discounted rate with low miles from everyone turning in their leases.
     
    Christopher likes this.
  7. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,484
    Likes:
    4,187
    length (meter)
    4.8 Range Rover Sport (4.85 m) -> Grand Cherokee (4.82 m)
    5.0 Range Rover -> Wagoneer
    5.2 Range Rover LWB (long wheelbase) -> Grand Wagoneer
     
    Prabhjot likes this.
  8. BobbiBigWheels

    BobbiBigWheels The "Front-Line" Perspective

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2016
    Messages:
    3,245
    Likes:
    4,876
    There's a line in the luxury world that I don't see Jeep being able to cross, I agree, however that line has Lexus, Infiniti, Escalade, Audi, and BMW all below it. Mercedes, Porsche, LandRover, Ferrari, are above that line. I don't know if there's a segment separating these vehicles, but each vehicle below this "line" I refer to is no more impressive than a well optioned FCA vehicle.

    EDIT: The term "Jap", I think, is not one I would use.
     
    Zagnut27, freshforged and GasAxe like this.
  9. BobbiBigWheels

    BobbiBigWheels The "Front-Line" Perspective

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2016
    Messages:
    3,245
    Likes:
    4,876
    To add on to my post - I think I've determined where I draw the line;

    If a brand is simply a "lux" version of a vehicle that already exists in a different model, it loses credibility with me.

    Lincoln = Ford, Cadillac = GM, Audi = VW... etc.
     
  10. tomaz

    tomaz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2010
    Messages:
    2,071
    Likes:
    1,069
    its not about having a Luxed up brand of a existing brand and then calling it a luxury brand/model. Its about that Lux Brand/Model having its own identity and exclusive content, let-alone design that sets itself as a Luxury Brand/Model..... instead of "Premium"

    by your logic. a Mercedes ML isnt "Luxury" because its a platform mate of the Grand Cherokee. especially the years when they were more closely related.

    a Luxury brand should have almost everything exclusive to that brand minus Infotainment Software and transmissions and in some cases Engines. in my eyes a CT6 is NOT luxury as it has switch gear/bottons you'll find in a Chevy Cruze in both feel and Looks. also its Interior Design looks very Similar to other GM offerings
     
  11. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2015
    Messages:
    5,540
    Likes:
    10,938
    Jeep may or may not be considered a lux brand (or specific vehicle) at this point in time, but that says nothing about where the brand can go in the future. I see some say "never" and "always" in their comments, but nothing is ever set in stone. Times change. Opinions and brands do too. What does it take to change? Consistent effort, wise use of resources, capital, and manpower, in addition to an effective marketing strategy...and not necessarily in that order.

    Can Grand Wagoneer/Wagoneer become "lux" or similar in the future? Yes. What will it take? At the very minimum the things I mentioned above. Will it happen? Depends on FCA and only time will tell. But good things don't happen overnight, and seldom without investing the hard work.
     
  12. Tomguy

    Tomguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes:
    936
    So from what you're saying, it's about exclusivity - not cost of purchase, or cost of ownership, packages etc. I can't say disagree about the GC quantity out there - and the sales back that up too. When I bought my 2014 on July 2 of 2013, nobody else had one in my area. Now, I see a 14+ at least once every 3 minutes on average of driving. Can't say I see a hundredth as many LRs (of course, to me they don't stick out either; they, to me, are more Chelsea Tractor than anything I'd consider - but that's based on my opinion alone).
    GW doesn't need a whole bunch of lux conquest sales to be a success. If enough GC buyers move upmarket into the GW, it will be a success. If enough Denali or Expedition buyers move over, same thing. It's a Jeep, so it'll sell well regardless of how it's built, just like an MB - Jeep buyers are loyal to a fault. If it's built WELL, though, it will not be able to be made in quantities that it is demanded in.
     
  13. BobbiBigWheels

    BobbiBigWheels The "Front-Line" Perspective

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2016
    Messages:
    3,245
    Likes:
    4,876
    In my opinion, FCA vehicles are a small handful of technology away from offering everything one can get in a Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari.

    It's the little things that put these luxury vehicles above others.
     
  14. Bajanbuoy

    Bajanbuoy Durango Dave!
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2004
    Messages:
    843
    Likes:
    780
    All things considered... Who cares what it's called if it sells?

    Right now a GC Summit and Land Rover Discovery are very close in price. The Range Rover Sport and GC SRT are very close in price. Yet, Jeep cannot build enough of them.

    So if Jeep is selling at the SAME price point as Land Rover/Range Rover, who cares if people don't think of Jeep as Luxury/Premium or whatever adjective they want to call it... They are selling at that price because people believe that the product is worth it.

    The point of the matter, is that the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer will be larger vehicles with more room/seating and most likely more utility in terms of towing and cargo carrying capability. If the Tahoes/Suburbans/Escalades and Long Wheelbase Rovers sell @ $70,80 and 90k, the Wag/GW will sell as well, regardless if people see them as "Luxury/Premium" per se.
     
    GasAxe, BobbiBigWheels and Ryan like this.
  15. Ryan

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes:
    12,341
    Exactly.

    Tahoes and Suburbans aren't technically "luxury" vehicles but they sell at luxury prices. Jeep has been on a streak recently, so I don't think they'll have any problem accomplishing the same.
     
    Bajanbuoy likes this.
  16. Prabhjot

    Prabhjot Active Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,361
    Likes:
    1,370
    The Jeep W and GW plus the new Wrangler and the new GC, all here by 2019 (?) are equally premised (in financial planning and capacity utilization/maximization terms) on sizeable 'white space' demand from outside the usa: exports.

    Jeep, despite being one the first truly born-global brands of both capable/utilitarian 4x4s and later 'luxe' one only sold 250 odd thousand (almost entirely just usa+canada) in 2008. It now sells at the rate of 1.4 million a year.....and its globalization of distribution (including for expensive exports out-of-the-usa), marketing, branding and service is only now hitting full steam (with the Compass, a pretty premium model believe it or not in many countries.)

    btw, fca already successfully sells the splendid Maserati Levante at these elevated price points, and soon the Alfa Stelvio and another 1 suv from each coming up soon enough, to go with some versions of the GC (which last is priced and positioned higher globally than it is in the usa.)

    The Jeep globalization to supplement the already large usa share will only hit its full final, profitably high-margin 'topend' with the 'authentic' usa-exported new Wranglers, new Grand Cherokee, W and Grand Wagoneer.

    The cheaper new 'global' Jeep models (Cherokee, renegade, compass) have ensured the brand's manufacture, but esp distribution and service network is viably spread globally, and the brand (re)established. The final, LandRover-RR-like, step awaits and will therefore likely be successful for that very reason.

    JEEPs will soon be the biggest car exports out-of-the-usa (currently that credit goes to....BMW!)?

    THE american automotive legacy brand will have, then, proven itself as UNIQUE indeed, as it was at the outset.
     
    AlfaCuda and freshforged like this.
  17. Alexbucks

    Alexbucks Guest

    I think the Wagoner should thought as the "spiritual-successor" of the Hummer H2, but at the same time it also needs to be the Full Size SUV offering for the CDRJ Network (the RAM customer).
     
    wtxiceman likes this.
  18. MoparMantis

    MoparMantis Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2004
    Messages:
    482
    Likes:
    193
    What's the speculation on seating capacity for these? That's one of the big things for me. I wish there was a mopar suv that offered at least 8 passenger seating again. More would be nice.
     
    wtxiceman likes this.
  19. BobbiBigWheels

    BobbiBigWheels The "Front-Line" Perspective

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2016
    Messages:
    3,245
    Likes:
    4,876
    Pacifica comfortably seats 8!
     
  20. freshforged

    freshforged Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,983
    Likes:
    2,536
    Still think the Wagoneer would the perfect product to introduce sliding rear doors on a SUV. Wheelbase shouldn't be a limiting factor and it would allow the use of 2 rear bench seats (8 passenger capacity) without making rearmost access impossible. The vehicle itself should be rugged enough to not have to worry about any lingering "soccer-mom" stigma.
     
    BobbiBigWheels likes this.

Share This Page

Loading...
 We are not affiliated with FCA. We make no claims regarding validity or accuracy of information or advice. Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.