AF: What car today is similar to 300m? | Allpar Forums
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What car today is similar to 300m?

Discussion in 'LH: Large Cars, 1993-2004' started by MoPar~Man, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. MoPar~Man

    MoPar~Man Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    161
    Likes:
    11
    What 4-door sedan today is the most similar to the 99-04 300m? Roughly same size (5m length), weight, FWD V6?
     
  2. voiceofstl

    voiceofstl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,378
    Likes:
    1,210
    chevy Impala
     
  3. Tomguy

    Tomguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes:
    935
    Currently, the Avalon is probably the closest. 1.9" shorter, 12lb less, FWD, 3.5-Liter V6 DOHC 24-Valve. More power, twice as many speeds, better MPG, safer... Haven't driven one, though, so I can't say if it's more comfortable or smoother on the highway. The 300M is a very smooth car.
     
  4. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    21,196
    Likes:
    4,399
    When the 300m/LHS went to the RWD LX in 2005, a couple of my customers went to Buick FWD.
    The car I thought most similar to the 300, albeit smaller was the 200. With the V6, 9-speed and AWD, the car goes strong and straight.
     
    hmk123, JA Cumbo and Bob Lincoln like this.
  5. MoPar~Man

    MoPar~Man Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    161
    Likes:
    11
    Some randon questions / concerns about any car that I'm considering to replace my '00 300m (in no particular order of importance, just as they occurr to me). I don't know which of these apply to Avalon, Impala, or Buick (or Hyundai?) equivalents:


    - I like the fact that 300m V6 is not transverse mounted. Would like next car to be the same.

    - Don't like the idea of electric power steering

    - Hate the idea of auto-engine shutdown when car has stopped (at, say, a traffic light or heavy traffic)

    - Must have full leather seats, but not at extreme trim level that includes stupidly-large wheels

    - 17" wheels preferred (not 18 or 19" road-slappers)

    - heated steering wheel would be nice (wish my 300 had that)

    - do not care at all what electronics the car has - I do not own a cell phone. AM/FM radio is fine.

    - VERY CONCERNED about the degree to which these new-fangled cars can have their locks / alarm system deactivated by apparently simple / cheap hacks. Has the industry done anything about this since these intrusion thefts started happening 5 or so years ago? Has LH Sentry-Key ever been hackable like this?

    - Do not like push-button start (I think it's part of the hacking problem mentioned above).

    - I like the 300m gear shifter. Not the zig-zag that some (many?) cars have. Don't need auto-stick (have never used it in my 300).

    - hate the front-end look of the Avalon.

    - don't like the high belt-line (short windows) that seem to be the style for the past 15 years.
     
    DC-93 likes this.
  6. Tomguy

    Tomguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes:
    935
    Sounds like your choice is another 300M, or compromise on at least several of those items. Other than the LH, I can't think of any FWD cars that use a longitudinal engine position. All the others you mentioned are transverse, and any of them made any time recently will have electronics. By the way, electronic systems are way harder to hack than an old-school key system. Any locksmith (or someone with locksmith gear) could do a SKIM key for the older Chrysler cars, I'm sure.
     
  7. voiceofstl

    voiceofstl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,378
    Likes:
    1,210
    You did not say new or used. I also hate the short windows. The trouble with the Impala it has real bad rear visiabilty. You can get a 2011 Buick Lucerne that even comes with a bench seat if you want one. The LAST generation Avalon has bigger windows and more room then the new one.
    Why FWD? You might get a great deal on late model 300 with the great 3.6 V6 and all wheel drive.
     
  8. MoPar~Man

    MoPar~Man Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    161
    Likes:
    11
    Tomguy said:

    > By the way, electronic systems are way harder to hack than an
    > old-school key system. Any locksmith (or someone with locksmith
    > gear) could do a SKIM key for the older Chrysler cars, I'm sure.

    1) Criminals walking around at night with a small gizmo they bought off ebay can push a button and unlock the car they're standing beside, open the door take stuff from the car. Can't do that with LH Key Sentry.

    2) I believe that stats will show that over the years from the late 90's (when Key Sentry or equivalent started to be used) the cars typically stolen became the models without it. Hi-end cars ended up being stolen by *towing them* away.


    Voiceofstl said:

    > You did not say new or used.

    I'm begining to think that my options are limited now (for a 2019 model) and might have to be last year or older. Maybe see if there are southern US 300m's I can buy.

    > Why FWD? You might get a great deal on late model 300 with the great 3.6 V6 and all wheel drive.

    I live in flatland (the middle of southwestern ontario) and we get a lot of snow that comes off lake huron. The 300m with a set of snow tires does an amazing job of getting me out of my unplowed neightborhood after an 8" overnight snow fall. Driving on wet roads (ie twisty mountain-side roads during a rainstorm) just doesn't happen around here. Don't need the extra weight and expense of AWD. If I had a 3 or 4 car garage then I would buy a summer car (and it could or would be RWD).

    Is there a car that otherwise meets my goal in most other ways but is only available in AWD?
     
  9. Tomguy

    Tomguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes:
    935
    Sentry key isn't used to unlock the door. Just start it. The PCM only checks for SKIM during initial start. I've tested it, it's why my spare key is a non-SKIM. I can unlock with it and not set the alarm off. So all someone needs is a set of lock-picking tools, which are arguably just as easy for someone skilled to get into the car.

    It seems like you want something older, with minimal use of computers, and a limited set of other features... not that there's anything wrong with what you want, it's just that it's not available in the market new. A used 2015-2016 200C would probably be a great car for you, if you can deal with some electronics and a transverse engine. Same with an older 200C or Avenger JS.
     
  10. ehaase

    ehaase Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    103
    Likes:
    42
    An Audi A4 would be a bit smaller but is available in FWD that is not transverse.
     
  11. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    36,681
    Likes:
    19,434
    A few months ago, backup camera became required equipment, so you’ll probably have a fancier radio than you want.
     
    Bob Lincoln likes this.
  12. Doug D

    Doug D Virginia Gentleman

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    14,543
    Likes:
    4,021
    A determined thief doesn't need any gizmos. All they need is a rock or hammer to bust a window to reach in and grab what they want.

    It's not just hi end cars that are stolen. A number of years ago my '92 Acclaim (not exactly a hi end car) was stolen while I was working at night. It was recovered a few hours later. Police said it was common for thieves to tow a vehicle offsite, then break in, pop the ignition cylinder and then drive the vehicle away to be cut up for parts (I was working less than a mile from the DC line in MD where it is illegal for a tow operator to tow a vehicle across the DC line after dark without the owner present). Found my car with the drivers door bent back, and the ignition cylinder missing. The only reason it wasn't driven away was they damaged the wiring when the popped the ignition cylinder. Over $600 damage - fortunately I had full coverage.

    It wasn't the first time a vehicle had been stolen from the company lot (not fenced). One of my bosses had his '85 Buick Skylark stolen in broad daylight - came out from work to find his car gone and no one saw anything. The same night they stole my car, the broke into the programming dept and stole a few computers.
     
  13. ptschett

    ptschett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2004
    Messages:
    844
    Likes:
    144
    It can depend on the vehicle. My dad recently bought a 2018 (old style) Ram 1500 Express quad cab to take over some farm jobs that were being done with older pickups (the newest of those a '95 F-150 SuperCab), and he was surprised that the backup display was in the mirror where he was expecting it to be on the radio screen like my 2017 Ram 1500 Big Horn with the 8.4AN.
     
    #13 ptschett, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  14. MoPar~Man

    MoPar~Man Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    161
    Likes:
    11

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhldTWMif5I


    Tell me if you can do this on an LH model car, with what-ever gizmo's they're using. I asked about these gizmos's here a few years ago, about whether they work on 10+ or 15+ year-old cars, and got no answers. I'm still wondering if cars today are still vulnerable to this.

    It's very rare for kids where I live for kids to break windows to get into cars parked in driveways in the middle of the night. They typically just walk past cars, try the door, if it's not locked, they go in, look through the glove box or center console. Doesn't matter if there's absolutely nothing visible from outside the car worth taking. I'm far less concerned about stealing the car vs being able to just walk up to it and defeat the door lock / alarm like the video shows.
     
  15. Tomguy

    Tomguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes:
    935
    In the case of those devices, most of them are sourced from crooked locksmiths or dealers. In which case, they can source a key for *ANYTHING*. Why would they source a key for an LH car when they can do it for a brand new Hellcat? It's just about odds in those cases. FYI: FCA did find the source of most of these (a crooked dealer in Mexico) and shut down those thieves.

    As far as defeating the door locks, if you want to talk about tech, the RF signal passed by a remote fob such as those for our LH are long enough range for someone to be able to pick up, and old enough tech at this point that they can be cracked fairly easily. Modern cars fobs are more encrypted and harder to crack, and on newer vehicles with keyless entry, for someone to sniff the RFID from that they'd essentially need to be right next to you. Not saying it CAN'T be done, but it is way harder. You're using a false equivalency to say why the newer techs are bad, so I'm just trying to point out that stuff is more secure now than it was 20 years ago - not less.

    Again, the point of all of this is that the car you would prefer to have isn't made today. It can't be made with modern safety standards, and what the car buying public expects to have. Like I said, the Avalon is probably the closest, but its styling and visibility can't compete with the 300M. Then again, the 300M can't compete in terms of economy, speed, or modern amenities (features, interior cabin quietness, etc.)

    If I were looking to buy a car in your shoes, I'd be looking at the 300 AWD if you want Chrysler; it's the closest, by far, to the 300M offered by Chrysler. Specifically, the Touring L. 18" wheels but with actually thicker sidewalls than the 300M had (by the way, the 20" wheels are still pretty smooth, the suspensions are usually tuned around the wheels; the "S" may be too firm for you). The Dodge Charger is second closest. Both weigh more than the 300M but you will enjoy it because it makes it smoother on the highway, more stable in the rain, and AWD makes it better in the snow. Have you driven one? I bet if you did, especially after a day or two, you'd probably find it difficult to go back to the 300M. The base Charger R/T rental I had in Phoenix rode better than my 300M does, handled better, and so on. The comfort left a bit but it may be the base cloth seats at fault there. Which by the way were even heated, not that I used that in the 118 degree heat. The visibility was the biggest downside when compared to the 300M, but I'd take the current Charger any day, for any purpose, over the LH.
     
  16. MoPar~Man

    MoPar~Man Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    161
    Likes:
    11
    > In the case of those devices, most of them are sourced from crooked
    > locksmiths or dealers. In which case, they can source a key for
    > *ANYTHING*. Why would they source a key for an LH car when they
    > can do it for a brand new Hellcat?
    > As far as defeating the door locks, if you want to talk about
    > tech, the RF signal passed by a remote fob such as those for
    > our LH are long enough range for someone to be able to pick up,

    Why are you talking about a key? Those guys are not even touching the car! They're unlocking the car by pressing a button on a box.

    And they probably didn't scout the cars ahead of time to snif the codes out of the air when the owner used their fob to lock / unlock the car. You need to watch those video's again to see what they're doing. There's no indication at all that they had the opportunity to get an RF sample of the real fobs being used.

    > It's just about odds in those cases. FYI: FCA did find the source
    > of most of these (a crooked dealer in Mexico) and shut down
    > those thieves.

    I don't know about the situation you're talking about. Presumably a dealer selling real actual mopar keys / fobs that presumably need to be programmed to work on specific / individual cars (unless there's a "master" key code that can work on any car?)


    > Modern cars fobs are more encrypted and harder to crack,

    The situation in the video happened last year. Presumably it's a hack or device that is being used against cars no older than 5 years old. Not 15 years.

    > so I'm just trying to point out that stuff is more secure now than it was 20 years ago - not less.

    I'm not buying that, just on the seat-of-the-pants expectation that "newer is better".

    > Like I said, the Avalon is probably the closest, but its styling and
    > visibility can't compete with the 300M. Then again, the 300M can't
    > compete in terms of economy

    The overhead display says I'm getting 28 - 31 MPG on the highway in my '00 300m. My fuel guage agrees with that. That's plenty good enough for me.

    > speed

    Really? People need to go faster than the 300's top speed of 205 km/h?

    > or modern amenities (features, interior cabin quietness, etc.)

    Is there an objective measurement of how cars rate in terms of cabin noise? That would be meaningful to me.

    > If I were looking to buy a car in your shoes, I'd be looking at the 300
    > AWD if you want Chrysler; it's the closest, by far, to the 300M offered
    > by Chrysler. Specifically, the Touring L. 18" wheels but with actually
    > thicker sidewalls than the 300M had

    I don't want a 2-ton car. That was for the 60's. Sidewall thickness is a red herring - of course when you have rubber-bands as tires the walls need to be thicker. I don't see taller rims with smaller aspect-ratio tires as being an advantage for a daily driver car other than for ego-stroking. Certainly way more expensive when it comes to tire replacement.

    The 2005 and up 300c does not appeal to me in any way. It didn't in 2005 and still doesn't in 2018. Not in terms of weight, engine/drivetrain choices, style, etc.
     
  17. voiceofstl

    voiceofstl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,378
    Likes:
    1,210
    why does wieght matter if the 300 v6 drives better is faster and gets better mileage.?
    Here is a newer used car that meets your 300m...2016 Impala limited, good size windows and visiabilty. Get the LTZ version.
    Under 30,000 miles and you can get one for 15 grand. 305 v6 power with a 6 speed automatic.
     
  18. Tomguy

    Tomguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes:
    935
    Dumbing it down to the most basic level possible:
    It's done by using the manufacturer supplied information for the VIN of the car in question. Connect to a MFG's database, pull the code for the keyless entry from the VIN, you're in. Just because they use a computer or smartphone with the hardware to send an RF itself, versus a physical fob, doesn't mean that sending the code isn't involved. This is a misuse of the word "Hack". There's no real hacking. Can modern cars ACTUALLY be hacked without the mfg supplied code? Probably, if you have about 2-4 months non-stop access to the vehicle to be able to break its code by brute force. Which would be an extremely unlikely situation in the real world.

    One dealer was giving criminals access to Chrysler's DB to look up those codes. It was found to be the source and shut down.

    It's simple technology and realities. Let's use the most simple comparison possible: say you have a skeleton lock with 4 tumblers. Either the tumbler is triggered or not. There are 2^4, or 16 combinations. Add 1 tumbler, 2^5, or 32 combinations. With electronic encryption, if you have 64 bit encryption in a key, 64-bits is equivalent to 8 bytes. How many possible combinations are in 8 bytes? That's 2^64 = 1.8x10^19 (19 zeroes) possible combinations to brute force. The LH is probably somewhere around 8 bits in its keys... modern cars are likely 128-bit or 256-bit, which is more key combinations than there are atoms in a gram of carbon.

    You obviously aren't driving much over 60 frequently (MAYBE 65) if you're getting 28-31 real-world MPG. The best I've ever gotten was 28 on a fairly flat trip (EVIC said 30, it was wrong as it almost always is), and that was at 70-75 average. The point being if you want to keep up with most modern traffic, you'll get better economy in a newer car. This is what I meant by the speed (not just the acceleration) - the 300M can go fast, sure. I usually cruise around 75-80 MPH to keep up with traffic in the fast lane. When I do, I see my MPG isn't getting above 25, all highway; usually 23-24. Having another gear to go into versus being around 2.5-3k RPMs would help the car's economy with its slippery design quite a bit.

    If I got a dB meter, I guarantee you, the level of perceptible cabin noise in my Pacifica would be under 68 dB, at 75MPH. The 300M doesn't touch that at 55. The engine noise is louder, wind noise is louder, rain hitting the windows and undercarriage is far more pronounced, as is tire noise on concrete or uneven asphalt. I could go on, but that weight you hate - at least 200lbs of it is probably sound-deadening, and it's WELL worth it in modern cars, if you ask me.

    225/55R17 tires, stock on the 300M non-special models, $100 a tire for Goodyears on TireRack; the Firestone Firehawks I would prefer are $108 a tire. Not too bad.
    225*55% means a sidewall height of 123.75mm.

    225/60/18 tires
    , on the older 300 & Charger AWDs, look to be mostly the same price as those 17" tires on TireRack.
    225*60% means a sidewall height of 135mm. Way more sidewall than the 300M.

    235/55R19 tires
    , on the 300 current Touring AWD, $150 for Firestones on TireRack; I'd probably go for the Fuzion Touring @ $126 a tire as I've had good experiences with Fuzions - less than $80 more for a tire change over the 300M.
    235*55% means a sidewall height of 129.25mm, which is STILL more sidewall than the 300M.

    So while tires might cost slightly more, you're not losing anything in terms of ride from the 19" wheels, you're gaining.

    As far as 2 tons being for the 60s... you're mistaken. 2 tons is for safety. Crash your 300M at 60MPH into a dump truck, you're gonna be laid up in the ICU for a while. Crash a 2018 almost-anything-sold-in-the-US and you're probably going to walk out of the car with a bit of a headache from the airbag and not much else.

    The first-gen LX cars were inferior to the 300M in terms of interior appointment. There is no sugar-coating this fact. I bought a 2006 Charger despite its interior. The second-gen cars are far better and the current offerings make the 300M look dated. As far as engine choices, a longitudinally-mounted V6 - same as the 300M. Transmission: twice as many speeds. Driven wheels: Twice as many (2WD vs 1WD, if you want to think about how many wheels you'll have slipping in the snow).
     
  19. MoPar~Man

    MoPar~Man Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    161
    Likes:
    11
    Tomguy said:

    > It's done by using the manufacturer supplied information for the VIN of the car in question.

    Those guys are *not* looking at the car's vin number and typing it into some hand-held gizmo. They're walking past the car in the middle of the night and click, the doors unlock. They are apparently sniffing a signal that's always being emitted by the key (even when the key is nearby inside a house or apparement) and re-transmitting the signal to the car. I think these boxes are called "relay boxes". The car thinks the real key is nearby and hence it unlocks the doors, and you can sometimes apparently even start the car and drive it some distance. These are not necessarily Chrysler vehicles - they can be (some? many? most?) cars with keyless entry and/or push-button start.

    > You obviously aren't driving much over 60 frequently (MAYBE 65) if you're getting 28-31 real-world MPG.

    My 300m is on the highway maybe once every third month, usually for a 200 mile round trip, sometimes 600 miles. Overhead console says 28 (if I have the AC on or I have a head-wind or it's raining) or 30 mpg (maybe a slight tail wind). I'm cruising at 112 km/hr (70 mph) tach says about 2200 rpm. If I draft a semi truck for a while (drive maybe 50 ft behind him) MPG will go to 34 - 35 mpg.

    Tire sizes: I was assuming that overall tire diameter was going to be the same. But it's not. The 19" rims with tire have 29.2" overall diameter (vs 26.7" with 17" rims) so yea, the sidewall will be roughly the same height.

    FWD 300m puts a lot of weight on the front wheels. I put Cooper Discoverer M+S 215-70R-16 on the front (barely clears the shock tower) in the winter and there is no snow deep enough that these tires haven't pull me through with no effort, no tire spin.

    Wind, engine and cabin noise: I would have thought the old 300m, which looks more aerodynamic than the bently-styled 300c, would be quieter on the highway (from wind noise at least) and have a fuel-economy advantage by not having to push that vertical-wall that passes for a grill through the air.

    Look. If the LX 300c came with a V6 and FWD I'd be considering it. But I'm not thrilled with Chrysler any more. The company has no soul. Not since Daimler tossed it into the ditch and it was picked up by Fiat for scrap. I should have bought a 2004 300m and put it in storage. I was thinking the 300n was going to be my next Chrysler - the one they showed as a concept at the '00 Detroit auto show. What a gorgeous car.
     
  20. Tomguy

    Tomguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes:
    935
    The first gen lx 300 wasn't that bad for drag. 0.330. The 300M is 0.310. The current 300 is 0.320. A lot was done to flatten and clad off the underside (which also helps with road noise) and rear air diffusion. Granted that you can probably clad off the 300M underside a bit and make a diffuser to lower that cd even further... But we're talking stock. And the benefits of snow tires cannot be understated, I agree. My RWD Charger R/T was my daily driver year round in snow and I typically passed AWD and 4*4 trucks and SUVs that got stuck with not even a hint of drama. People are afraid of snow because they don't put good snow tires on. You can't walk in the snow in ballet flats yet people expect to get traction with all season tires!

    The 300M (and LH in general) had a heavy weight bias to the front. It sometimes is off-putting when on a highway with bad asphalt or drainage like the PA turnpike when you can feel the hydroplaning. That is one reason I did prefer the lx.
     

Share This Page

Loading...
 We are not affiliated with FCA. We make no claims regarding validity or accuracy of information or advice. Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.