AF: Who gets the new six? | Page 3 | Allpar Forums
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Who gets the new six?

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by Dave Z, Jan 31, 2018.

  1. AutoTechnician

    AutoTechnician Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes:
    1,329
    Depends on the motor. The "inherent balance" of an I6 doesn't mean it's perfectly smooth. A Pentastar equipped Wrangler is noticeably smoother feeling than a AMC 4.0 equipped Wrangler.

    I'm still not convinced I6 is definitely the way to go, or that it will somehow "improve" packaging. Ford, GM, Hyundai, and many others have no problem packaging twin-turbo V6 engines (in both longitudinal, and transverse applications), so I'm not sure why it's such a problem for FCA. Many of the engine bays the Hemi fits into now are already pretty tight length wise. Toyota's 2JZ family engine (3.0L class) are around 31" long, and the AMC 4.0 was around 32". That's 3-4" longer than the current 5.7 Hemi engines.

    Additionally, other automakers have tried the "modular" engine family thing before, and it usually ends up with some particular variation of the engine being a compromise. Like the GM "Atlas" engines, where the engines got worse and less competitive with each cylinder lost compared to the "main" I6 engine.
     
    VoiceOfReason and somber like this.
  2. KCP Worker

    KCP Worker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    285
    Likes:
    187
    What are those dimensions of? Front to back block faces or total including front cover and pulleys?
     
  3. freshforged

    freshforged Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,974
    Likes:
    2,541
    Which is why I’m convinced it’s less a packaging issue and more a n instance of trying to find the cost/efficiency/power sweet spot. I’m not sure how much modularity is worked into the program, except to the extent that there will be a three cylinder engine derived (whole or in part?) from the 6. Have huge expectations, given the engineering teams recent successes!
     
    James A likes this.
  4. AutoTechnician

    AutoTechnician Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes:
    1,329
    Rear block face to front damper pulley face for each engine. It may be possible to shave some of the added I6 length by using siamese cylinders and small bore sizes. But it's not like the Toyota 2JZ or AMC 4.0 have particularly large bores to begin with. Even modern BMW I6 engines are typically over 30" long.
     
  5. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,364
    Likes:
    3,942
    Modular engines are not new for FCA.
    For example "Pratola Serra" engines with gasoline and diesel engines, 4 and 5 cylinders versions, most cast iron blocks, other with aluminium block, turbocharged or naturally aspirated.
    Bore range from 79.50 to 83.80 mm, displacement from 1370 cc to 2387 cc.

    Fiat Coupé 20V (5 cylinders) 220 CV
    [​IMG]

    FCA has already twin-turbo V6 60° and 90°, and former FCA company Ferrari has and makes V8 twin-turbo (also for Maserati).

    The potential "problems" with packaging of V6 are when You want to electrify it since space, but also that with two turbochargers, in normal side position, You have to "hot" sides.
    Electrical motors, electronic circuits doesn't like at all "hot" places, You can always cool more, use heat shields, ... but adds complexity and costs.
     
    #45 MJAB, Feb 3, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  6. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes:
    4,549

    Highly unlikely. If there will be a GME 3 it will be directly related to GME 4. GME 6 will most likely use some more expensive technologies for engine block.

    Nothing duffdiffe to what is done by other car makers and modular Inline engines.
     
    ScramFan likes this.
  7. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes:
    4,549
    We must look at 3D space.

    For example Pentastar. Huge bore spacing for modern standards. Big left and right bank offset.
    You end up with two hot ends. A nightmare for packaging with turbo.

    On the other hand most Inline 6 are maxed at 3 liter capacity. Small bore, long stroke, 91 mm bore spacing or less.
    You have cold and hot end. Saves a lot of space with turbo or turbos.
     
    VoiceOfReason, somber and ScramFan like this.
  8. freshforged

    freshforged Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,974
    Likes:
    2,541
    Reviewing my post, I realize I misspoke. Rumor has it the 6 would be derived from the 3, not visa versa.
     
  9. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes:
    4,549
    It does not make sense. You may derive smaller engine from the bigger one but not vice versa unless you are seeking for catastrophe.

    As I said. Inline 3 and Inline 4 from the same modular engine family are usually almost identical. Inline 6 usually has sturdier engine blok or is using some technologies which are not financially viable on smaller engines.
     
    ScramFan likes this.
  10. AutoTechnician

    AutoTechnician Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes:
    1,329
    The Pentastar has siamese cylinder bores to keep the block as compact as possible, it's bore size (96mm) is also completely in line with almost every other 3.5-3.8L class V6 from every other manufacturer. The 60° bank angle keeps the engine compact compared to 90° V6 engines.

    I'm still not buying the "packaging" nightmare. Ford, GM, Hyundai, Audi, Nissan, Infiniti and others are expanding their twin-turbo V6 offerings in both longitudinal and transverse applications. If it were such an impossible nightmare to package TT V6s, I wouldn't expect nearly every other major manufacturer to be developing new TT V6 engines. The only two manufacturers I see going "back" to I6 engines are Mercedes and maybe Jaguar-Land Rover. To me, this whole I6 GME thing is just a "me too!" by FCA.
    You can derive anything you want, from whatever you want. Ford's Modular series engine started out as a SOHC 4.6L V8, but nearly 10 years later was expanded to a 6.8L V10. The Viper/Ram V10 started out as a Chrysler LA V8. The Aston-Martin V12 started out as a Ford Duratec V6.
     
    Adventurer55 and Max Wedge like this.
  11. dakota21

    Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2014
    Messages:
    280
    Likes:
    237
    Wasn't the AMC 4.0 derived from the 2.5 4-banger which was derived from the 4.2? I wouldn't call any of those engines a catastrophe.
     
  12. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes:
    4,549
    So tell me... You are designing 3 liter 6 cylinder engine. They will be single and/or twin turbo. They will not be naturally aspirated.

    Which configuration would you choose?

    1. Small bore Inline 6
    2. Small bore hot Vee V6 90°
    3. "Huge" 106 mm bore spacing V6 60° with exclusively twin turbo set up on each side of engine
    ?
     
    tlc and ScramFan like this.
  13. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes:
    4,549
    And they left engine block structure as for Inline 4? They just added two cylinders two it with no upgrades?
     
  14. AutoTechnician

    AutoTechnician Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes:
    1,329
    I really don't get why you keep harping on the "huge" bore spacing, despite it being comparable with every other similarly sized V6 engine made. The Pentastar is only 19" long, compared to 30-32" length of modern I6 engines. Even small-bore I6 engines are extremely long.

    If my application were a single turbo engine, I'd probably go with a reverse flow (hot vee) 60° V6. Twin turbo would be a conventional flow engine, with a turbo hanging off each side - like everyone else is doing.
     
  15. freshforged

    freshforged Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,974
    Likes:
    2,541
    I’m just repeating what good sources have already reported on Allpar. I don’t pretend to have all the angles down, nor do I expect our sources to give up everything they know—they have their jobs to think about and FCA wants to keep this project under wraps. This is why I’m not going all in on the modular aspect of the program—it’s not clear to me that it’s a high priority. YMMV
     
    James A likes this.
  16. serpens

    serpens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes:
    1,110
    Audi is actually packaging their V6 TT with the hot vee design, much like their V8 TT motors.
     
  17. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes:
    4,549
    Modern Inline 6 could very likely end up with around 650 mm in length with 91 mm bore spacing. A lot shorter compared to your suggestion. BMW is not using their big block Inline 6 for ages. Actually there are technologies to make it 600 mm long but such a packaging is rare. And I'm talking about engine with auxiliary belts. Who knows. Maybe they will not use them. In that case Inline 6 engine length could end up very close in length as modern Inline 4.

    19" for Pentastar or around 480 mm. I don't know from where you got numbers but it could be right. It's longer than some European Inline 4 engines. So nothing compact there.

    But I asked to look at space as a 3D. You gave just length.

    I gave three examples for a reason.

    BMW came with all new Inline 6, same for Mercedes, and JLR will most likely came with one. They are in some way related to smaller Inline 4 or even Inline 3 engines.

    Audi and Porsche came with all new V6 90° which is exclusively in hot Vee configuration. It's related to all new V8.

    They are citing packaging advantages. Especially Mercedes and Audi.
    All engines from all four automotive groups are exclusively turbocharged.

    In 3rd basket we have car makers which are reusing old technologies, old engine blocks. Engines which also have naturally aspirated versions.
    Like 3 liter TT V6 from Cadillac, 3 liter TT V6 from Lincoln. We can also add 3 liter TT V6 as in Maserati to that group.

    So in all three cases 3 liter, 6 cylinder, turbocharged engines are common.
     
    AlfaCuda and ScramFan like this.
  18. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes:
    4,549
    It's always good to read what other car manufacturers are doing. Namely some European car manufactures. ;)
     
    ScramFan likes this.
  19. AutoTechnician

    AutoTechnician Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes:
    1,329
    The Toyota 2JZ engine has 86mm bores with 92mm bore spacing, and it's still 31" long. An engine isn't just cylinder bores. You have a water jacket, you have a bell housing mounting flange, you need room for the main bearings. You need room for the timing-chain drive. Yeah you could shove some length off by eliminating the accessory drive, but you still need a harmonic damper somehwere to keep the crankshaft happy.
    "nothing compact", uh-huh. It might be longer than some 1.4L-class 4-cylinders, but that's about it. The Pentastar is even shorter than the very good Mazda 2.3L 4-Cylinder engine.
    You'll find that once you include intake and exhaust manifolds on an inline engine, it's not nearly as "narrow" as the block would suggest it would. This is because on a V-engine, you can put a lot of the manifold inside the V, or place it "ontop" of the engine. In an inline engine, some of the manifold necessarily has to stick out the side. However there are other packaging considering than just "absolute width".
    These manufacturers are not reusing "old engine blocks". The latest TT V6 engines from Ford, GM, Nissan, etc.. are all brand new, bespoke engines designed with turbocharging in mind. Like Ford's 2.7L EcoBoost - there is no N/A variant of this motor.
     
  20. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes:
    4,549
    It seems that I need to pull one another modern European engines. The one from a Group which I don't like.
    Inline 5 with 494 mm in length or width. 2.5 liter engine.

    GM, Ford... They all have NA versions with same engine block. 2.7 EcoBust is just reuse of diesel technology.
     
    ScramFan likes this.

Share This Page

Loading...
 We are not affiliated with FCA. We make no claims regarding validity or accuracy of information or advice. Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.