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Discussion in 'Mopar News' started by Dave Z, Nov 29, 2017.
Those people tend to be used car buyers, and that's one reason why used Jeeps are always in demand.
Yeah... I know plenty of female Jeepers who wouldn't be caught dead in a Renegade!
You qualify your second statement as being true but you don't have a source to back it up. I'm really curious to know where exactly this data is, or more importantly, why it's even relevant?
I wasnt talking Literal sense, Realistically, Motor+Drivetrain in this Wrangler is worth 20K
$20k? good luck.
If you can find a base JK probably get it for close to 20k soon. MSRP is 24k and I've already seen discounts of 4k on a few models with more options.
"To add that in last FCA financial reports most of FCA's net profit was from Ferrari S.p.A.. Also this data are in FCA's annual financial reports."
Ok, this is where the conversation ends. Jeep/Ram make the vast majority of the FCA profits. The accounting tricks they use to transfer this to other entities, if it isn't obvious to you, we have nothing to talk about. Those tricks aren't in public documents.
Who needs who in 2017? Certainly Jeep and Ram and Dodge don't need any of the Italian brands at this point. They can fund their own development, and Chrysler could mortgage against the JDR assets to grow.
What don't you understand about this? CDJR do not need the Italians brands, they don't compete in the same segments, and the 'shared architectures' - who is pocketing the money from the L-series redesign in 2022 from an architecture that was predominantly paid for in 2015-2016? The extra cost to adapt to Dodge is an afterthought. Dodge would be be better off with its own clean slate designs.
The master salesmen has fed you nonsense about getting to two million vehicles a year to survive but is constantly focused on maintaining high margins and releasing high end/low volume vehicles and calling high volume brands a 'stump'. And then the mods will chime in here "well that money (200/Dart) is being used for Wagoneeer/Grand Wagoneer. How about Alfa gets nothing from Jeep/Ram profits and borrows strictly from Ferrari's balance sheet? Both statements - "we must be a high volume brand to survive vs. making Italian supercars which in ten years (Alfa) still can't support itself" can't be true - which one is it then?
There was never an integration, we're 10 years in and we see exactly what is going on now. This time CDJR got lucky that gas prices were low, and that Fiat is less terrible than Daimler. The song and the how the money is siphoned remains the same.
I will shut up if they make a B-Class BoF SUV overseas with XJ like capabilities at $25K but it will never happen because it's against every fiber in this companies body to do something like this. And it's why I have an extremely difficult time supporting FCA after the JL unveil. Instead of being excited, I see a missed opportunity and a cash grab by going upmarket. It's all become clear now.
You'd better cancel any vacation plans you have for 2018. You're going to be too busy selling Wranglers!
I want one now and I realistically don't really need that type of vehicle. That's how good JL is in my view.
Well from your sentence is evident You don't know the structure of FCA, that is divided in many companies, yes companies since they are split in several indipendent companies with their CEO, board of directors, ...
External revision companies certify the economic-financial balance of FCA.
Ferrari S.p.A., was not owned 100% by FCA, but at 90%.
The other shareholder I assure You was not prone to someone else to take even a dime from its wallet (dividends). To add that the spinoff was possible only because Ferrari S.p.A. dividends were distributed since Piero Ferrari was asking since years to pay dividends and not put it in reserve (used by FCA to finance the other companies).
All can be found in the certified financial reports of FCA and Ferrari S.p.A., as You would know companies balance are public.
Financial report for year 2015, where the Ferrari data are split from consolidated data.
At page 51 of the 288 pages, but can be found in other sections of the document.
FCA consolidated net profit: Euro 377 million, of which
Net profit from continuing operation Euro 93 million
Profit from discontinued operations, net of tax Euro 284 million
For sure if one looks at the "adjusted EBIT", that is the value "highlighted" in the financial presentations (that are not reports), the numbers appear more "rose coloured".
Adjusted EBIT (but also EBIT) express a potential of generating profits, not a real generation of profits. For example in that period You'll find, not included in the adjusted EBIT numbers, the NAFTA extra recall expenses.
And, and is a big part, the EBIT does not include interests. So if NAFTA operations, before financial fence were removed, had a very high interests rate on loans with interests about 8% (and not writing about the U.S.A. and Canada loans interests) while margins in that years in NAFTA region were about 4%.
So the profit generated as You wrote by Jeep and Ram was not real profit for the company, but used to pay recalls, NHTSA fines, government / unions shares in Chrysler LLC, and most of all interest on loans.
2011 and 2013 were good years, when the NAFTA profits were high. FCA problem were (I hope for them) the unexpected costs and financial ones, but this last, the rates, decreased for NAFTA region when the financial fence was took down.
The above needs to be qualified as your opinion. FCA is stronger than either Fiat or Chrysler alone and for whatever issues we might complain about, There has been far more to be excited about than there has been since 2005. That's my opinion.
@cygnus Do You write at a USD 25k vehicle body on frame with Jeep XJ capabilities or do You think about something like XJ?
I ask since the XJ is not body on frame, but was a monocoque with longitudinal engine/transmission and two-speed transfer case with shafts going to front a rear differential of solid axles?
At a price in line with your 25k there was till few years ago the Suzuki Grand Vitara, but with indipendent suspensions. LHD is gone since 2015, while the RHD should be in production, but don't know if it has the two-speed transfer case.
Body on Frame still in production, with new model arriving in 2018, is the smaller (size of a city car) Suzuki Jimny.
Pricelist in Europe for Jimny range from about 14k to 17k + taxes. Usually one can buy one with about 5-10% discount on pricelist.
Both are/were manufactured in Japan, at least the ones (or some versions) arriving in Europe.
Well what You buy with this body is for sure not the interior, that is a "little bit" spartan.
You know he was talking about the brands in North America where Fiat is a dead brand walking.
Most of those costs were sins of the post from the Daimler/Cerberus days. When you remove the sins of the past, CDJR is much, much stronger than Ferrari/Alfa. Alfa would not exist without CDJR. You've heard of heard of opportunity cost, I take it - I go back to my original statement, SM on multiple occasions has made statements implying that achieving scale is a huge priority. Yet the opportunity cost that's been taken is to put money into Alfa. That cost = money from CDJR that could have been invested in C. So now, C gets the Pacifica crossover (which unless they wanted to give up the market to entirely to Honda/Toyota, had to have been done) and an Indian engineered crossover that will be branded as a Jeep but sold as a Chrysler in the US. Again where are the US dollars from JR going back into US product? The only outlier here is Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer. In the 10 years FCA has existed, this is the single blue ocean investment that's been made. That's one billion dollars in new vehicle investment. Okay, I'll give you the $750 million that it's going to take to update Warren to make the DT based SUVs. That's $1.75 billion. The rest of the investments made thus far during Fiat's ownership were to keep the plants up to date so they can create updated product, otherwise they might as well just sell it to the Chinese.
(Don't worry about Ferrari, let's talk about where Alfa is getting its cash from)
I give SM's tenure a B-. Miss on the 200/Dart. He brought a very nice/luxurious JL, nice/powerful L cars, and WK2/DS are doing well. But there's no home runs here. None. I don't consider $60K+ vehicles with high HP engines to be home runs from a strategic perspective, but they are nice to have/provide good branding for the company. I consider volume segment vehicles that ship over 50K units a year and steal market share (while being profitable on a per unit basis) from other OEMs to be a home run.
I am a little more generous: Dodge Neon and Chrysler Pacifica are shaping up to be homeruns; JL and upcoming JT and DT also have the markings of homeruns.
But you are more generous than I am on SM’s tenure: I give it a C. For as much as seizing Chrysler for pennies was a coup, and FCA is finally showing the ability to launch homeruns, the path to this point is littered with unprecedented wreckage and waste: SRT “brand”, Dodge Viper, Dodge Dart, Chrysler 200; vacating important segments for the sake of margins but leaving FCA less diversified --and exposed; a multi-brand strategy that isn't allowed to optimize market synergies by a stubborn no-overlap mantra based on manufacturing considerations; the unfolding Fiat USA saga, a nail-biting ProMaster launch, a the-jury-is-still-out Alfa Romeo USA launch that was supposed to be critical; record lows in quality and customer satisfaction rankings, etc.
When you stretch and fabricate one detail, why would we not think other details are stretched and fabricated also?
Like stretching and fabricating the sales figures?
I'm confused... You state that Chrysler has been starved of investment saying there is only the Pacifica based CUV, but how do we even get that without the huge investment in Pacifica? There was also a huge investment in the 200, which you acknowledge existed by referring to it as a miss, but you fail to acknowledge the investment itself... There's also a ton of money that went into JL and Cherokee and Compass and DT, etc. You are more than welcome to your opinions, but let's not misstate facts...
Has nothing to do with the point being made by @KCP Worker. Let's not try to deflect when we don't like what's being said.
note: FCA has no 10 years history since, if I am not wrong, the green light to acquisition was given june 2009 by a federal judge, than mid july 2009 there was the European Union OK (anti-trust).
Just some of the investment You forgot.
- new Jeep JL it is just a small upgrade made on existing JK and there is no new assembly line?
- Jeep Cherokee and its assembly line?
- Saltillo plant new line for the Jeep Compass ? They even closed the plant several months to renew it.
- Kokomo and Tipton investment for 9 speed automatic (investment + license > USD 843 million) - production started 2013, if I am not wrong.
- and what about the production of ZF 8HP transmission in Kokomo plants, no investment needed for that?
- new line for GME T4 engines
- and what about the servo tandem presses installed 1 at Warren (USD 63 million) , where no new press was installed since 15 years, and 2 + 1 servo progressive at Sterling (USD 166 million).
Servo presses, the installed are Komat'Su allow to make stamping otherwise not possible or difficult to do with other presses.
- ... ....
FCA US wrote in its media press release, dated august 26, 2016 that "More than $8.3 billion invested in U.S. operations with $3.5 billion in Michigan since June 2009".
Well maybe, as some write, are all fabricated informations and vapourware.
Maybe even the presses are fictional as well as production lines and made with use of computer graphics, who knows .
In parallel there were also the investments of Magneti Marelli and Automotive Lighting, that is a Magneti Marelli owned company, in renew or open new plants in U.S.A..
And as for "Giorgio", maybe the reason why there are not till now two vehicles using it is that maybe the innovations used are so much that they want to finish to be sure of long term reliability and/or manufacturing process of parts an components are not yet ready for deploying on large scale (for example share of discarded parts because defective).
A while back when one of the annual reports showed 85% of profits came from US market, I saw the investment in Alfa as diversification. Sort of like for individual investors, you want to have a decent exposure to international markets in your portfolio. I'm really happy with Giulia, a gorgeous car. Maybe it will eventually become thought of as a "home run". The disappointing things are that Giulia was so late, and that a Dodge version of the vehicle isn't on the market already (this was the stated goal, and it should have already happened, IMO).