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WTF is going on at FCA?

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by aldo90731, Jul 20, 2020.

  1. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    It is possible the electronic steering exacerbates the problem, but there seems to be too much mechanical slop in many steering boxes (and some rarer cases of slop from other mechanical sources).
     
  2. Adventurer55

    Adventurer55 Well-Known Member

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    If no hydraulics are used then how does the system work?
     
    superduckie5000 likes this.
  3. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    That's exactly what I think. It's a mechanical issue. Maybe programming could cover it up but they had the same problems with hydraulic steering. I'd also guess they have way too much variability in the production line.

    Electromagnetism. What I don't understand is how hydraulic systems work.
     
  4. Adventurer55

    Adventurer55 Well-Known Member

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    Well Dave that makes two of us.
     
  5. 85lebaront2

    Level 2 Supporter

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    I really think from reading some of this that FCA must have found a stash of left over M37 parts, those things were horrible on the highway, wandering back and forth, no real issue with slop just no directional stability.

    FWIW, I had a 1958 F100, same issue, not really sloppy steering, just (a) tended to wander a bit and (b) would go into what is now referred to as a "death wobble". I fixed by adding a 1/2 length helper spring on the rear portion of the front leaf springs, thereby increasing the caster angle. Truck drove great for 110" wheelbase leaf spring live axle vehicle after that.

    I wonder what the front alignment specs are for these Jeeps?
     
  6. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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  7. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    Jeep JL has an hybrid steering assist system, it is an electro-hydraulic steering system electronically controlled.
    There is a hydraulic pump that, instead of bring coupled with the engine to put the hydraulic fluid in pressure, has an electric motor that makes to pump work.
     
  8. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    Some have said that the issue seems to only occur (or become more noticeable) at highway speeds. Is the system not adjusting properly for the change in speed? Steering systems are speed sensitive, no?

    I ask as if I have some idea of what I’m talking about....I went to the Mr Mom school of automobile engineering:

    988254A7-FD1F-43C0-ACBC-7BF74D8D87F5.jpeg
     
    #128 Zagnut27, Jul 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
    aldo90731 likes this.
  9. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    Nothing is adjustable on the stock suspension but toe, I believe.
     
  10. 68RT

    68RT Well-Known Member

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    At minimum, you also align the steering wheel. Other angles (caster/camber) must be within tolerance too. They may be hard to change but they must be correct (in tolerance). Caster and camber have a big effect on self centering and wander. Tire diameter and or wheel offset can totally change steering characteristics. Toe-in influences tire wear more than anything else. A non-centered steering gear WILL have slop. They are tightest in center so as wear happens it can be tightened some.
     
  11. gforce2002

    gforce2002 Well-Known Member

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    It was kind of hard to tell on the one I drove, since the higher speeds tend to be on highways with more straight stretches so the sloppiness is more noticeable trying to keep it straight. I did notice it at secondary road speeds too though.

    Micah Muzio’s family review videos are always great fun, but in this one if you skip to the 5:25 mark, he’s talking about and shows the vagueness. That amount of movement was about the same as the one I drove.

    View: https://youtu.be/bapJoT6tJ8k
     
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  12. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    He doesn’t seem too put off by it...I wonder if that Wrangler is one of the better ones? I’d like to get behind the wheel and see for myself. It’s hard to rely on what others are saying, because everyone has their own idea of what is tolerable.
     
  13. gforce2002

    gforce2002 Well-Known Member

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    They really did like the vehicle while acknowledging that it was pretty specific in purpose.

    You’re right, the only real way to see if it’s for you is to test drive. Make sure it includes a lot of highway driving if that’s what you do most of though.
     
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  14. 85lebaront2

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    Sounds like my 1986 F350, from the factory, the only adjustments are toe and centering the steering wheel. In order to have it aligned, I found a shop that could and would bend the twin I-beams, that was 26 years ago, front tires still wear perfectly even all the way across.

    There has got to be a way to (a) read the alignment values and (b) a set of specs that they need to be at. I assume it is a Dana/Spicer axle, caster and camber are adjustable on some with eccentric bushings on the upper ball joint. Caster can also be adjusted with wedge shims between the axle and spring.

    FCA probably doesn't care one way or the other, the old "fix it again Tony" theory.
     
  15. Adventurer55

    Adventurer55 Well-Known Member

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    It isn't a Fiat thing. This mindset was present long before they came into the picture. In an effort to save pennies in various locations throughout a vehicle, it ends up costing them many dollars. Typical sign of a bean counter mentality.
     
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  16. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    There is a huge improvement in build tolerances between a 1986 Ford and anything produced today. Many cars have been built with no adjustment from the factory for any adjustment but toe (and steering wheel centering is part of toe) in the past 25 years. Caster and camber haven’t been adjustable. To do so requires different non-factory parts.
     
  17. 85lebaront2

    Level 2 Supporter

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    That mentality was what almost killed GM, any place they could save a few pennies they made parts thinner, less fasteners on parts. Interestingly enough it was Ford who first came up with a reliable way to make thin wall castings for engine blocks saving weight and cost.
     
  18. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    A large number of first-time Wrangler owners go on the JL forums saying that they have “the death wobble” when in fact they only have a sloppy steering. The two are not the same.

    Granted, one can have both, particularly on a lifted/modified Jeep, but death wobble is highly unlikely on a brand-new vehicle.

    If nothing else, this speaks of how much association of “death wobble” with “Jeeps” exists out there. And a sloppy steering only fuels into this.

    Like I said, FCA is leaving itself greatly exposed to potential lawsuits.
     
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  19. Adventurer55

    Adventurer55 Well-Known Member

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    I am probably shooting myself in the proverbial foot here, but I have owned live axle Dodge and Jeep vehicles since 1979 and I never once have experienced the death wobble, ever. My 2002 Ram 2500 diesel has 225,000 miles on it and I've had it since new. The only thing I haven't done is modify the suspension. Now all of the parts which weren't greasable new have all been replaced with ones that can be. My steering gear which is original, was tightened up a bit about a year ago because it began to get a bit sloppy. But this was after 223,000 miles. That's kinda expected. There's no excuse for a new vehicle to have sloppy steering.
     
  20. hmk123

    Level III Supporter

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    #140 hmk123, Jul 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020

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