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A604


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19 replies to this topic

#1 eagle

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Posted November 25, 2004 at 12:00 pm

I just had the tranny rebuilt and it works like a charm. However, I noticed that it doesn't lock up the torque converter until after it has warmed up a bit, maybe fifteen minutes or so of driving. Is this normal and if not, what could be the problem? Of course I could always ask the fellow who rebuilt it, but I'd like to know the answer ahead of time in case I should like to bring it up with him. My other question is, assuming he did a great job of rebuilding it, how long should I expect it to last under normal driving conditions? While I'm at it, here's a tip of the hat to all the fine folks who contribute their time and expertise to make this forum an outstanding place to keep on learning new stuff about cars.

#2 fjb37

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Posted November 25, 2004 at 01:01 pm

This is normal. The TC does not go into lockup until the engine is warm. Good luck with the rebuild and what oil is in the tranny? Just my $0.02.

FredB

#3 eagle

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Posted November 25, 2004 at 01:45 pm

Phew, glad to hear it's normal. Before I authorized the rebuild I asked the tranny pro what fluid he would put in it. Without hesitation he said atf+3. That, in part, help convince me that he knew what he was doing and might be the right guy for the job. I'm keeping my fingers crossed though Fred.

#4 adamopar

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Posted November 25, 2004 at 11:28 pm

Phew, glad to hear it's normal.  Before I authorized the rebuild I asked the tranny pro what fluid he would put in it.  Without hesitation he said atf+3.  That, in part, help convince me that he knew what he was doing and might be the right guy for the job.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed though Fred.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Was it necessary to flash the transmission computert module? Did they check
the software version number? Just asking because in my minivan someone
had it rebuilt but there are lots and lots of things to do to rebuild a tranny
and Cottman I don't think did all. It's okay but I'm going to take my
van to the dealer to make sure the software is up to date. It shifts
a bit slowly, which taxes the torque converter and that's what the
software update is designed to do, get the shifting done quicker.

For all Cottman charged for the rebuilding, a remanufactured
tranny from Chrysler installed would have been cheaper but
that's Cottman. In fact, Cottman was about $1000 more than
a remanufactured Chrysler unit installed would have cost,
in the end, if my reckoning is correct.

Currently the reman trannies seem to run around $1900
so with installation it might be more than what you paid.
Jaspers has them for $1600 for the mechanic.

#5 eagle

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Posted November 26, 2004 at 06:45 am

This is normal. The TC does not go into lockup until the engine is warm.


What are the mechanics/electronics of this put simply? When the engine reaches operating temperature does the ecm send a message to the tcm???? Posted Image
A new tcm, straight from the dealer, was installed adamopar.

#6 ragtoplvr

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Posted November 26, 2004 at 10:20 am

The TCM and the ECM share the throttle position sensor, and speed sensor on some of these, so both see it in real time. Other inputs that do not have to be instant, like temperature are sent over a relativly slower 2 way bus. The specifics change from year to year, for example later years do not have a seperate speed sensor, so losing a sensor in the tranny make the spedometer quit, earler ones, like my Dynasty, have seperate speed sensor that when it fails (every 50K miles), does not affect the tranny. Even later ones have the TCM and ECM combined in one module, so they can be real tightly coupled. They might have seperate processors, or they might have a fast enough processor that one can do it all. The delayed lockup, and even delayed shifting, overdrive lockout, when cold or real hot are emissions, and drivability and even overheat protection strategys that were put into the program in the TCM, these have become very common on the newer cars. I really do not like the feel of this, particulary delayed upshifts when cold, I do not like to race a cold motor, but would be a real pain to change, actually the faster warm up is probably good for the engine.

Rod

#7 adamopar

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Posted November 26, 2004 at 12:30 pm

What are the mechanics/electronics of this put simply?  When the engine reaches operating temperature does the ecm send a message to the tcm???? Posted Image
A new tcm, straight from the dealer, was installed adamopar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I don't know. I do know that for $17 a Superbook for this transmission can be purchased directly from Chrysler for $17 including all the years this tranny was ever built, from 1989 to 1988. Would that help? Would it cover the TCM or is that a separate issue? Just don't know. The book will be called Superbook 41TE/AE but it's tha A-604 tranny. But the book is not enough since it's possible the latest software update is after the book was made or is not included. That would be in the Technical Service Bulletin. I just don't know if the TCM and its control mechanisms would be in this Superbook. You would think so but I just don't know because I have not purchased the book myself, but I might.


I am using TSB 18-020-02 Flash Programming Failure Recovery, which supersedes TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 18-32-98, which in turn supersedes the original TSB-18-24-95, involving the TCM: "exhibit a pronounced shudder during EMCC operation, harsh up/down-shifts, and/or harsh torque converter clutch engagements."
That's what I found so far in the TSB's. Did the dealer check the TCM to make sure it had the latest software revision? They are listed below. The second column is the software revision. One dealer told me they don't know so they want to charge extra just to find out if their part has the latest software revision. Another dealer said it would have the latest software revision. It's relatively inexpensive to flash the TCM if it is flashable, some are, those with the fins on one side are. This is supposedly a relatively simple check and perhaps one you are entitled to for free since you have concerns and they just might have assumed the TCM had the latest revision. Maybe a bad assumption. I am having the same concerns as you do. I need to find a dealer with the mechanics who have the expertise to really check this our or an independent who would have the equipment and the interest. It gets complicated on older cars with the TCM since they require a special harness and maybe special procedures.



Reman. Part No. Vehicle Application -
Software ID
Year
Body Type
Engine
R4686606AA 04686606 95 AJ,AS,A1,A3,A4,ES 3.0, 3.3 & 3.8L
R5269726AA 05269726 95 FJ 2.0 & 2.5L
R4797708AA 04797708 95 LH 3.3 & 3.5L
R4686478AA 04686606 93-94 A,C,J,P,S,Y 3.0, 3.3 & 3.8L
R4759066AA 04797708 93-94 LH 3.3 & 3.5L
R4761848AA 04796123 92 A,C,G,J,S,Y 3.0L
R4761849AA 04796124 92 C,S,Y 3.3L & 3.8L
R4761847AA 04796122 90-91 C,S,Y 3.3 & 3.8L
R4761846AA 04796121 89-91 A,C,G,J,S,Y 3.0L


Chrysler Corporation has developed a complete set of diagnostic manuals.
These manuals cover the diagnosis of an electronic transaxle. They
have been designed to make transaxle diagnosis accurate and simple.
Use these manuals with the DRB scan tool and the latest software when
diagnosing transaxle problems. If you experience any problems with installation, operations or need applications information not covered in this brochure, call our "Mopar Technical Service" hot line toll free at: 8am to 5pm M-F (ET)
"Please have Product Part Number and Application available for reference"
1-800-86MOPAR (1-800-866-6727)

#8 viper91180

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Posted November 27, 2004 at 07:09 am

adamopar, do you know what your talkin about or are you just trying to confuse him?, 18-020-02 supercedes 18-32-98 but it does not supercede the transmision shudder bulliten, the first two you mentioned are flash program recovery bulletins which have nothing whatsoever to do with repairng a specific problemw ith teh transmission. they are their to assist and minimize the chance of controller lock up when a flash is in progress, and further to that, if he purchased a new controller from the dealer then it would be the up to date software partnumber


eagle, sounds like your tranny guy did an excellent job, dont worry about it.

#9 adamopar

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Posted November 27, 2004 at 10:49 am

adamopar, do you know what your talkin about or are you just trying to confuse him?, 18-020-02 supercedes 18-32-98 but it does not supercede the transmision shudder bulliten,  the first two you mentioned are flash program recovery bulletins which have nothing whatsoever to do with  repairng a specific problemw ith teh transmission. they are their to assist and minimize the chance of controller lock up when a flash is in progress, and further to that, if he purchased a new controller from the dealer then it would be the up to date software partnumber
eagle, sounds like your tranny guy did an excellent job, dont worry about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


If you want to have the latest software version than you need the latest Technical Service Bulletin which lists the latest software version numbers.

Why are you having trouble following this? It tracks indirectly back to the original TSB. Do you understand the logic now?

Do I know what I am talking about? Probably. And here I thought I was doing a nice thing by actually listing the software version numbers that are the latest. The last TSB refers indirectly to the original shudder by referring to the software version upgrade.

If he replaced his TCM and is still having problems, it might be helpful to know what software version is on his TCM, assuming it is flashable.

There is not any guarantee that the dealer would have the latest software on the TCM. How do I know? Because that's what the dealer told me where I lived. In fact, the dealer said I might have to PAY to have the TCM checked to make sure that it did have the latest version number.

So I could say back to you what you said to me. Do you know what you are talking about?

You are making assumptions that are not true all the time, but vary dependent on the dealer and location. What you assume and state are simply not true for the dealer in my home city. I was appalled to go to the dealer in person and have them tell me they could not guarantee that the TCM would have the latest software version on it if I purchased the TCM from them and would have to pay extra to have them double-check the TCM. Obviously this is not good service from a Chrysler dealer. So I will go to another dealer. But this is really lousy customer help for my home town. The other dealer appears to have a higher standard of service and experience.

The latest TSB simply lists the actual revision numbers and part numbers which is very helpful. Is it confusing? Of course it is confusing but I did the work and would have appreciated some more thought on your part. In any event, I list the TSB's so anyone can go trucking from one to the other.

Enough. I found your post obnoxious and annoying and this is not good. Why? Maybe I do not know what I am talking about. Maybe I do know. I did a lot of work tracking down these TSB's and reading through and going to web sites and if your rude post is the result - then I shall probably not post such detailed info in the future. And now I know why most people who post here are rather conservative. They avoid obnoxious replies. The next time I shall just make a vague reference to the Superbook on transmissions and the automatic transaxles 41TE and find the latest TSB on your own.

#10 tealfish

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Posted November 27, 2004 at 11:31 am

To adamopar... I have a 95 intrepid 3.5L At around 30000 miles, in 1997, the trans was shifting very roughly. It was taken to the dealer for warranty work and it came back shifting properly and has ever since then. the only thing was I had to replace a leaking line to the cooler going to the front of the car..

Question,,, is there any updates to the computer, or to the engines computer, that I should be haveing flashed with a 10 year old car with 105000 on it ?

#11 adamopar

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Posted November 27, 2004 at 01:43 pm

To adamopar... I have a 95 intrepid 3.5L  At around 30000 miles, in 1997,  the trans was shifting very roughly. It was taken to the dealer for warranty work and it came back shifting properly and has ever since then. the only thing was I had to replace a leaking line to the cooler going to the front of the car..

Question,,, is there any updates to the computer, or to the engines computer, that I should be haveing flashed  with a 10 year old car with 105000 on it ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


My first thought was if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I have had that awful tendency to upgrade software or firmware only to find on occasion that I had to downgrade because upgrading is not always a pure and wonderful thing to do. It should be.

Sometimes upgrades are irrelevant. It could be the latest upgrade does not apply to your particular vehicle in any way. If the TSB actually lists what are the particulars of the revisions, that would be nice and then you could make an informed judgment.

I guess the only people who could answer this in detail would be a super expert independent shop who probably might not have invested in all the equipment needed to flash pre-1996 cars which sometimes require special harnesses and adapters. That's what those TSB's were partially referring to that the viper posted was challenging me about. Some of this special equipment is very expensive and is not the regular computer readers talked about. To read the TCM, from what I have been researching, on my old 1994, requires a special harness, in addition to the special device that can read (and re-program) a TCM or Transmission Control Module.

I am not a mechanic but I do know about firmware, EEPROM's, and software. My advice would be to:

1. Go cautiously. Try to find out what the upgrade fixes if anything for your particular vehicle. It is possible to screw up an upgrade. Then what? Can they just re-program?
I have not had a chip damaged with upgrading but if it occurred, then it's a new TCM or whatever. And the hassle of upgrading that replacement TCM if from a junkyard or checking it out if from a dealer since NAPA, etc., does not carry this or so when I last asked.

2. See if you can obtain the software/firmware version numbers for your exisiting modules. Most likely only a dealer can do this easily with their equipment but I don't know if the computers of independents have can also do this. I just don't know. I know the independents can read computers but all the computers? There appears to be at least three on these older cars, the TCM, the PCM, and the main computer, yes? At least two computers I read about and probably a main third computer, but again, I have just been reading TSB's and web sites. I have yet to order the Super tranny book and the Factory Shop Manual, preferring to put the money into upgrading the TCM, fluid changes, and so forth.

3. To be absolutely safe, and this is what I do personally if possible, make sure that the old software or firmware can be put back in if the new stuff does not work properly. This might be impossible with the cars. I don't know. Can they make a backup of the firmware/software they are upgrading? Firmware is software put on an EEPROM or chip which is what cars use. Computers use mostly software since, except for the BIOS, which is an EEPROM, the software can be modified at any time with other software, like compilers. Not so with an EEPROM, the software is burned into the chip so it's more like hardware. Have I confused you enough? EEPROM probably means Electronically Eraseable Programmable Read Only Memory (EEPROM).

Thanks for asking me but this is a question that a mechanic who works with computers and the modules for the transmission and the power train (TCM and PCM), and probably the main computer, would know. In other words, either a great independent mechanic or a highly certifiied Chrysler tech, called a Gold Tech Mechanic?

Anyone out there who can answer this? I'm just a poor user trying not to get ripped off, or worse, have my car destroyed because I tried to fix something that was partially wrong but not broke. My tranny is acting up and a Gold Certified Chrysler tech, on a newsgroup, told me to upgrade the TCM and put in ATF+3 for the infamous torque converter shudder at 37 mph (actually speeed varies but it's around 37 to 45 mph). The new software upshifts more rapidly descreasing the forces on the torque converter which causes it to self-destruct with the original softwae. So in my case, something is not right and I can either wait and budget for a new tranny or try to address the problem before the tranny needs to be replaced.

#12 eagle

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Posted November 27, 2004 at 03:24 pm

So here's the scoop. Yesterday it took over 20 minutes of highway driving for the torque converter to finally lock up. I fugured that if ragtoplvr and Fred were right about the engine temperature (I hate to admit it, they were right) then if I replaced the summer thermostat with a higher temperature thermostat, then the torque converter should lock up sooner. So that is what I did this morning, replaced the thermostat for a 192 degrees F and guess, torque converter lock up within 7 minutes, and yes, the engine temp as per the guage rose much faster and higher. Outside temperature was much the same yesterday as today. As the weather has been cooling, the delayed lock-up was starting to concern me as it was taking longer and longer. It now stands to reason with the t-stat that was in there. Some time ago I had looked into the TSB's but found that I could get little information on the net other than there were TSB's and their numbers and what they were concerned with. Solutions to these TSB's were not posted and I do believe that one was required to pay to have access to more info. I expected more info with the TSB's posted on the net. There's always lots to learn and it often comes down to how much time/money/opportunity one wants to invest in that process. Thanks all for your input.

#13 viper91180

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Posted November 27, 2004 at 09:55 pm

actually no, the bulliten i was challenging you on has absolutly nothing to do with flashing a tcm weather it be old or new, it is merely precautionary information. ive posted the first part of the bulloten because it is too long to post the whole thing as you can see it has nothing to do with special harness for pre obd 2 vehicles as it covers a large yme of vehicles.

NUMBER: 18-020-02
GROUP: Vehicle
Performance
DATE: Jun. 24, 2002
This bulletin is supplied as technical information only and is not an authorization for repair. THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 18-32-98,
DATED SEPTEMBER 25, 1998 WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR
FILES AND NOTED IN THE 1998 TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN MANUAL
(PUBLICATION NO. 81-699-99003). THIS IS A COMPLETE REVISION AND NO
ASTERISKS HAVE BEEN USED TO HIGHLIGHT REVISIONS.
SUBJECT:
Flash Programming Failure Recovery
OVERVIEW:
This Bulletin provides guidelines, to minimize flash reprogramming problems, and
information on recovery procedures for failed flash attempts.
MODELS:
1992 - 1994 (AA) Spirit/Acclaim/Lebaron Sedan
1995 - 2003 (AB) Ram Van/Wagon
1992 - 1994 (AJ) Lebaron Coupe/Convertible
1995 - 2003 (AN) Dakota
1992 - 1995 (AS) Town & Country/Caravan Voyager
1994 - 2002 (BR/BE) Ram Pickup
1998 - 2003 (DN) Durango
2002 - 2003 DR Ram Pickup
1995 - 2000 (FJ) Avenger/Sebring/Talon
1996 - 2000 (GS) Chrysler Voyager (International Markets)
1995 - 2000 (JA) Breeze/Cirrus/Stratus
2001 - 2003 (JR) Sebring Sedan/Stratus Sedan/Sebring Convertible
1996 - 2000 (JX) Sebring Convertible
2002 - 2003 (KJ) Liberty/Cherokee (International Markets)
1993 - 2003 (LH) Concorde/Intrepid/Vision/LHS/New Yorker/300M
1996 - 2000 (NS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager
1995 - 2003 (PL) Neon
2002 (PG) PT Cruiser (International Markets)
1997 - 2002 (PR) Prowler
18-020-02 -2-
2001 - 2003 (PT) PT Cruiser
2001 - 2003 (RG) Chrysler Voyager (International Markets)
2001 - 2003 (RS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager
1995 - 2002 (SR) Viper
2001 - 2003 (ST) Sebring Coupe/Stratus Coupe
1997 - 2003 (TJ) Wrangler
2001 - 2003 (WG) Grand Cherokee (International Markets)
1999 - 2003 (WJ) Grand Cherokee
1997 - 2001 (XJ) Cherokee
1993 - 1995 (YJ) Wrangler
2003 (ZB) Viper
1995 - 1998 (ZG) Grand Cherokee (International Markets)
1993 - 1998 (ZJ) Grand Cherokee/Grand Wagoneer
DISCUSSION:
Occasionally a flash update procedure may not complete properly and/or the
diagnostic equipment may lock up or become disconnected during the procedure.
Flash Reprogramming is a “CRITICAL PROCESS”; an error may result in a
no-start/failed control module. Most modules are recoverable; a recoverable
module is not covered under the provisions of the warranty.
This TSB covers items that may cause this condition, a process to restart
the flash procedure, and miscellaneous information that will help prevent
needless replacement of control modules.
GENERAL:
Flash Reprogramming is only authorized by a specific TECHNICAL SERVICE
BULLETIN (TSB), SERVICE BULLETIN, or RECALL.
Review the entire Bulletin/Recall prior to performing a flash reprogramming event. Often
other parts or testing ARE REQUIRED as part of completing the TSB/Recall.
When flashing a PCM/TCM there are other legal requirements with labeling
issues that are included in those TSBs.
Other non-emission related modules, such as clusters and BCM’s do not require labels.

#14 adamopar

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Posted November 28, 2004 at 04:38 am

[quote name='viper91180' date='Nov 27 2004, 09:55 PM']
actually no, the bulliten i was challenging you on has absolutly nothing to do with flashing a tcm weather it be old or new, it is merely precautionary information. ive posted the first part of the bulloten because it is too long to post the whole thing as you can see it has nothing to do with special harness for pre obd 2 vehicles as it covers a large yme of vehicles.

Did you actually read the TSB? What is wrong with you? Can you not read?
http://dodgeram.info...2/18-020-02.htm


This may or may not be in the original TSB but it spells out what you are obviously unable to grasp. The CH5500 is the special harness.

Can you follow now?


From the above URL you will get to this link, but it's also in the TSB.

1992 - 2000 TCM CONFIGURATION
YEAR/MODEL PCM TYPE
92 All FWD except BB EATX*
93-95 All FWD (only LH is flash capable) EATX 2**
96-97 All FWD EATX 3
98-00 All FWD except PL EATX 3A
92-00 XJ 4.0 AW4
99-00 AN, DN, WJ/WG 4.7 EATX 4***

* EATX controllers (89-92) are NOT flash programmable, all supersede to EATX 2.
** EATX 2 controllers need CH5500 for flash reprogrammming.
*** EATX 4 uses an EATX 4A for service replacements.

>>>AGAIN, EATX 2 REQUIRES CH5500 which is the special harness.<<<

Why are you having trouble reading?
Go slowly, follow the logic.
And apologize for wasting my time and energy with your completely wrong comments when it is all spelled out.


And for the last time: From the latest TSB:

PRE 1996 EATX TRANSMISSION CONTROL MODULES

Prior to 1996 there was not a vehicle SCI communication wire going to the FWD EATX controller only to the PCM. Those vehicle TCMs only communicate to the DRBIII using CCD communications.

For these FWD vehicles, use the CH5500 kit and CH7025 DIN cargo when connecting those modules to the DRBIII vehicle connector.

For 1992-1993 vehicles the TCM modules were upgraded to MY1995 software. Because of this you will need to use the Yellow SuperCard2, Ch8361, to set pinion factor or when using a "now" (superseded) TCM from parts as only the SuperCard2 properly sets the pinion factor on these updated modules.

Additionally, when flashing or installing P/Ns 4796121, 4796122, 4796123, or 4796124. The wire from cavity 49 must be removed from the TCM connector (ref TSB 18-24-95).



There, it has everything to do with the special harness.

Again, do you have trouble reading? Do you understand that the above is referring to? Do you understand that it refers to special harnesses and so forth? Do you understand anything?

If you challenge me and you are wrong, will you be man enough to apologize for my having to spell things out for you? Please don't waste my time if you are too lazy to actually read the TSB. Yes it's long but before you challenge people and claim that they don't know what they are talking about - you have to demonstrate that you know what you are talking about. I actually read the document. You apparently did not. Do you have something against reading?

I am very disappointed in you. Of all the posters, some are neutral, most are positive. But you are negative. You take away interest and energy with your thoughtless comments.

#15 viper91180

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Posted November 28, 2004 at 06:34 am

no matter what you think you know, the bulliten has nothign to do with flashing a tcm, it is for flash failure recovery, and that bullitin like i stated before does not supercede the shudder bulliten, they can be used in conjunction with each other if there is an error flashing, but they dont supercede

1. Go cautiously. Try to find out what the upgrade fixes if anything for your particular vehicle. It is possible to screw up an upgrade. Then what? Can they just re-program?
I have not had a chip damaged with upgrading but if it occurred, then it's a new TCM or whatever. And the hassle of upgrading that replacement TCM if from a junkyard or checking it out if from a dealer since NAPA, etc., does not carry this or so when I last asked.

thats what you stated, and thats second line you said is it possible to screw up an upgrade, and THAT is what the flash failure recovery bulletin is all about

#16 adamopar

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Posted November 28, 2004 at 06:42 am

[quote name='adamopar' date='Nov 28 2004, 04:38 AM']
[quote name='viper91180' date='Nov 27 2004, 09:55 PM']
actually no, the bulliten i was challenging you on has absolutly nothing to do with flashing a tcm weather it be old or new, it is merely precautionary information. ive posted the first part of the bulloten because it is too long to post the whole thing as you can see it has nothing to do with special harness for pre obd 2 vehicles as it covers a large yme of vehicles.

==========================================

Did you actually read the TSB? What is wrong with you? Can you not read?
http://dodgeram.info...2/18-020-02.htm
This may or may not be in the original TSB but it spells out what you are obviously unable to grasp. The CH5500 is the special harness.

My mistake. The special harness is mentioned specifically in the TSB that I referenced above.

I regret if I was too harsh with you but you really need to read the TSB in its
entirety even if it is quite long.

The whole point to that TSB is to make sure people are updatting their computers correctly with the latest versions of the software.

And the TSB specifically deals with whether the TCM or PCM is old or new. So how can you say it does not?

Please read it again, carefully and slowly before you reply.

Again, the relevant section from the TSB is:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
PRE 1996 EATX TRANSMISSION CONTROL MODULES

Prior to 1996 there was not a vehicle SCI communication wire going to the FWD EATX controller only to the PCM. Those vehicle TCMs only communicate to the DRBIII using CCD communications.

For these FWD vehicles, use the CH5500 kit and CH7025 DIN cargo when connecting those modules to the DRBIII vehicle connector.

For 1992-1993 vehicles the TCM modules were upgraded to MY1995 software. Because of this you will need to use the Yellow SuperCard2, Ch8361, to set pinion factor or when using a "now" (superseded) TCM from parts as only the SuperCard2 properly sets the pinion factor on these updated modules.

Additionally, when flashing or installing P/Ns 4796121, 4796122, 4796123, or 4796124. The wire from cavity 49 must be removed from the TCM connector (ref TSB 18-24-95).

See, it refers to older vehicles and it refers to special harnesses and methods. The CH5500 kit is a special harness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay?

Apologies accepted in advance.

#17 viper91180

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Posted November 28, 2004 at 06:46 am

im going to send you a pm as their is no need to continue this in here and hijack eagle's thread i have more to say, just not in here.

#18 hypershifter (converted)

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Posted December 1, 2004 at 05:11 am

eagle

I suspect that you had your reason for putting in a lower temperature thermostat, like more power. :o

Not only does the transmission think the engine is not warmed up, but the engine controller might also not be going into closed loop (self tune) mode. So you might get a black exhaust pipe and bad gas mileage.

I have an idea, that I have been wanting to try, which should let you put in a cooler thermostat and make the computers think the car is at the standard 192 degrees.

There is a small 2 wire temperature sensor near the thermostat. Brass color with a black 2 wire connector. It is between the thermostat housing and the distributor in the intake manifold. This is the sensor for the computers. The sensor for the temp gauge is a 1 wire sensor.

When you are driving down the road, the engine will actually stay at the thermostat regulated temperature because air is constantly passing through the radiator. When the car is parked idling, the fan kicks on at around 210 degrees and this is sensed by the computer temperature sensor.

Warm up the engine to full operating temperature. Unplug the sensor, this should cause the fan to kick on within 15 seconds, and you will get a check engine light. Don't worry the check engine light will reset after you plug the sensor back in and turn the motor off then restart. Since you are familiar with the car, let the fan run until the temperature gauge reads what it read when you are driving on the highway and the 192 thermostat is holding the engine a 192, then let it run for another 5 minutes just to be sure the thermostat is at its temp. Take a resistance reading across the 2 pins in the sensor with a digital volt meter like from Radio Shack. Write down the resistance value.

Now put in the thermostat of your choice, careful not to burn yourself if you do this right away. Now warm up the engine while driving on the highway so you know where the temp gauge sits when THIS thermostat is holding its temp.

Park and have your volt meter handy. Unplug the sensor, the fan will kick on within 15 seconds. Let the fan run until the temperature gauge reads what it read when you are driving on the highway and then let it run for another 5 minutes just to be sure the thermostat is at its temp. Take a resistance reading across the 2 pins in the sensor. Write down the resistance value.

Use the 2 values to calculate what resistor you need to buy at Radio Shack.

The formula is:
RadioShackResistor =
(NewThermostatResisance * OldThermostatResisance)
divided by
(NewThermostatResisance - OldThermostatResisance)

The equation will give a non-standard resistance value, so you will have to go with a resistor which is slightly more or less resistance, what ever gives the closer value. The Radio Shack Resistor should be 1/4 watt and within 5% of the calculated value.

Take the resistor and splice one side of it onto one of the computer temperature sensor wires and the other resistor lead onto the other computer temperature sensor wire. Wrap with electrical tape so that nothing will short to ground. This will fool the computers into thinking that the car is at 192 when it is actually at the (lower) thermostat temperature of you choice. The only thing which may cause problems is if the engine computer does not properly enrich the fuel during warm up, since the computer will think that the engine is 32 degrees warmer than it actually is, if you put in a 160 thermostat.

I think it will work fine. :)

#19 eagle

eagle
  • Inactive
  • 250 posts

Posted December 1, 2004 at 07:24 am

Hypershifter, you may be onto something there. I'm sorry to say (my head is hanging in shame here) that when I bought the lower temperature thermostat it was late spring and Canadian Tire didn't have the higher temp one and I thought what the heck, it shouldn't make that much of a difference, really. You would think that a guy old enough to have hair growing in his ears would know better eh!?

Edited by eagle, December 1, 2004 at 07:25 am.


#20 al sullivan

al sullivan
  • Active Member
  • 1,662 posts

Posted December 1, 2004 at 10:05 am

HMMMMMM!!

stay tuned folks!

Sully


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