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I haven't done a lot of reading or research on "alternative" vehicles, but it seems to me, that the only thing that makes sense, would be a hybrid vehicle that charges it's own battery, while using the other source of power to propel it down the road.

This would make it something like a perpetual motion machine.

Is there such a vehicle? If it can recharge itself while in motion, then there wouldn't be any need, or at least very little, to have to rely on any external source to recharge it's own battery.
 

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I haven't done a lot of reading or research on "alternative" vehicles, but it seems to me, that the only thing that makes sense, would be a hybrid vehicle that charges it's own battery, while using the other source of power to propel it down the road.

This would make it something like a perpetual motion machine.

Is there such a vehicle? If it can recharge itself while in motion, then there wouldn't be any need, or at least very little, to have to rely on any external source to recharge it's own battery.
All hybrid vehicles that I've seen recharge the battery from the gas engine while driving. They may also recover some charge from regenerative braking.
All a plug in hybrid does is give you the option to top off the hybrid battery with AC current.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
I haven't done a lot of reading or research on "alternative" vehicles, but it seems to me, that the only thing that makes sense, would be a hybrid vehicle that charges it's own battery, while using the other source of power to propel it down the road.

This would make it something like a perpetual motion machine.

Is there such a vehicle? If it can recharge itself while in motion, then there wouldn't be any need, or at least very little, to have to rely on any external source to recharge it's own battery.
It does not work because there is no free lunch.

Someone driving the Wrangler 4xe ran the batter to zero. Then drove for over 2 hours. It charged the battery up to something like 7%. Also, the fuel economy of the ICE hauling all those dead batteries around is very poor.

So, if someone is thinking of buying a PHEV, they need to consider their usage very carefully. It is not just what is listed on the window sticker that will determine a good experience or inferior experience.

Electrics require a completely different thought process with regards to your personal efficiency. For some it will be a huge benefit. For others, it will be a huge negative.

Doing that analysis is important.
 

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The flaw in your analysis is that 600kwh of energy is not needed to propel a car with an electric motor. Combustion results in a large percentage of energy loss that is not present when transferring stored energy from a battery to an electric motor. Electric motor drive is far more efficient than the 30-35% efficiency of an ICE. So a battery size or weight that you suggest is not realistic or necessary.
Not my analysis, that was a quote from the article. The high kWh aren't needed to propel the vehicle, they are needed to give the range. But it doesn't take 600 kWh to get good range, it only takes 100.

The Lucid Air has a 113 kWh battery, it weighs 4630 lb, and costs $100K with all the advanced materials to get the weight that low. Compare that with a 3131 lb Accord or 3327 lb Accord hybrid. That's 1500 lbs more, and the battery has to weigh more than that since it was offset by a whole lot of carbon fiber and advanced alloys.


The Tesla roadster has been announced with a 200 kWh battery for $200K.

 

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And here’s what will happen in NY state I can say this having lived here paid taxes here and put up with the highest taxes & cost of living:
Eventually it will be painfully apparent that all these new “helpful” and “green” and “sustainable” mandates put a disproportionate burden on a certain percentage of the population. I’ll spare you the terms our foolish governor used to describe that when discussing the vaccine roll out. The “helpful” new mandates will now be seen as “discriminatory” and “marginalizing” certain groups. The "experts" in Albany will be pointing fingers, not reporting facts (think nursing home debacle) and and passing blame around. The beat goes on.....
Yeah, and I'm guessing I've seen more of NY outside of the cities than Gov. Cuomo, and I literally just drove through it 2x in March going to/from NH for Army business. Was all over it, from the Mohawk Valley to the Finger Lakes. Even found Amish country (if you drive through on a Saturday, you'll see a ton of wash on the line from the house to the barn), and almost collided with the tip of a farmer's mulch tiller - which is a combination disk and cultivator used to disturb the soil underneath the surface without disturbing the corn stubble on the surface, to reduce erosion. Looked like they were plowing in cow manure.
 

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All hybrid vehicles that I've seen recharge the battery from the gas engine while driving. They may also recover some charge from regenerative braking.
All a plug in hybrid does is give you the option to top off the hybrid battery with AC current.
In theory that is exactly what a plug in hybrid gives you, they could make it that way. In practice they put a much bigger battery (5-11x bigger) in the plug in hybrid (Accord 1.4 kWh to 6.7 kWh) (Prius 0.8 kWh to 8.8 kWh).
 

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It does not work because there is no free lunch.

Someone driving the Wrangler 4xe ran the batter to zero. Then drove for over 2 hours. It charged the battery up to something like 7%. Also, the fuel economy of the ICE hauling all those dead batteries around is very poor.

So, if someone is thinking of buying a PHEV, they need to consider their usage very carefully. It is not just what is listed on the window sticker that will determine a good experience or inferior experience.

Electrics require a completely different thought process with regards to your personal efficiency. For some it will be a huge benefit. For others, it will be a huge negative.

Doing that analysis is important.
Here is the analysis for a average person, you can plug in your own numbers in the web site to calculate it personally.

Hyundai Ioniq used for comparison purposes since it has hybrid, PHEV and BEV versions

Ioniq Blue $23.4K
Ioniq PHEV $26.7K payoff in 33 years
Ioniq BEV $33.2K payoff in 39.2 years


Elantra SE $19.7K
Ioniq Blue $23.4K payoff in 9.3 years
Elantra Hybrid Blue $23.6K payoff in 11.1 years

So for a person planning to keep a car for 10 years with an average number of miles, buy the plain hybrid.

Go with the plain hybrid for a car if you want the lowest fuel cost based on today's costs.
If you think gas and electricity prices will be more volatile go with the plug in hybrid for a future proof choice.
If you are trying to make a statement, go with whatever makes your statement.
 

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Not my analysis, that was a quote from the article. The high kWh aren't needed to propel the vehicle, they are needed to give the range. But it doesn't take 600 kWh to get good range, it only takes 100.

The Lucid Air has a 113 kWh battery, it weighs 4630 lb, and costs $100K with all the advanced materials to get the weight that low. Compare that with a 3131 lb Accord or 3327 lb Accord hybrid. That's 1500 lbs more, and the battery has to weigh more than that since it was offset by a whole lot of carbon fiber and advanced alloys.


The Tesla roadster has been announced with a 200 kWh battery for $200K.

"Concept" car and "announced" are not real yet.
 

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"Concept" car and "announced" are not real yet.
The lucid air exists, in much closer to final form than the Tonale which has been sent back to the drawing board.

You can't have a ride in something that isn't real. Technically it may be vaporware, but that doesn't mean pre production cars don't exist.


The Tesla roadster doesn't exist yet.
 

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It does not work because there is no free lunch.
It does work because when you touch the brakes, the battery recharges. When you coast down a hill, the battery recharges. That energy would have become heat and lost brake pad material. Heck, the very first Toyota Prius had both those features. Our 300M and 300C, with cruise on, will downshift when going downhill to prevent overspeeding; the Prius or whatever hybrid will simply take back some of the kinetic energy and shove it into the battery.

Also, when you compare BEVs to gasoline powered equivalents, make sure you include acceleration differences. The Wrangler 4xe is much faster than the V6. That's a factor. The real competition for 4xe is Wrangler 392 and I'll bet that doesn't have great mileage. When the Bolt came out, its 0-60 was faster than most gasoline powered cars of its size. And dare I bring up the T-brand with the scummy front man?
 

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From the article:

Roughly one in five plug-in electric vehicle (PEV) owners switched back to owning gas-powered cars, in large part because charging the batteries was a pain in the… trunk, the researchers found.

Of those who switched, over 70% lacked access to Level 2 charging at home, and slightly fewer than that lacked Level 2 connections at their workplace.


Full article here:

1 in 5 electric vehicle owners in California switched back to gas because charging their cars is a hassle, new research shows (msn.com)
For those interested in journalism, this is a good example of how a headline can slant perspective. The author could have added a single word to the headline...ONLY one in five.....and the connotation would have changed to the positive. Human behavior is difficult to alter on a mass scale and the fact that 4 out of 5 EV owners stuck with the new tech is a good indication of success. In fact, considering all the stubborn dummies out there, it's remarkable.
 

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1) I know people how have had the Prius and had to replace batteries after 6-7 years at a cost of over 3 grand. I have never replaced an engine in any vehicle I’ve owned. Oldest in the fleet now is a 23 year old Grand Cherokee 4.0 six with 180,000 on it.
2) it’s not all about efficiency; at least to me it’s about something that works all the time in all environments. Pure electric would not.
At least in the case of the Prius, it appears to still be a DIY job if you chose to. Akin to a transmission swap.
 

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At least in the case of the Prius, it appears to still be a DIY job if you chose to. Akin to a transmission swap.
Question:
Do you know the voltage that these systems run on?
I for one would not be touching one of these!
 
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^ And yet people walk around with running gasoline engines strapped to their backs (leafblowers) without compunction.
 
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^ And yet people walk around with running gasoline engines strapped to their backs (leafblowers) without compunction.
People can survive explosions (not 100% of the time, probably not even 10%. But people have), but enough electrical power will kill you instantly 10/10 times.
Just as the people at FCA that decided to make 2 people "the standard" when working on the Pacifica hybrids.
Enough juice for instant death.
 

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Well, if you are dumb enough to work on high-voltage circuits when you are careless or unqualified, Mr. Darwin has an award waiting for you.
But a gasoline engine on your back can incinerate you even if you do everything right.
So your comparison is apples and oranges.

And people do survive high-voltage shocks. A friend of mine was an 18-yr old volunteer firefighter when a 13KV line arced several feet through the air to his hand and burned him severely, nearly killed him. He has since (40 years) had over 40 operations. But he lost a finger, webbing, burned away most of the muscle tissue in one forearm, suffered heart damage - but did not die. He made a comeback and worked his way up from volunteer firefighter to career battalion chief, retired after 32 years. Now he does carpentry and other trades.
 

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^ And yet people walk around with running gasoline engines strapped to their backs (leafblowers) without compunction.
You can see and smell leaking gasoline; you can’t “see” high voltage and/or amp electricity. BTW I’ve had 3 Echo machines that are now about 15 years old; never had a gas leak with any of them. For the same reason all I will do with home electrical is replace outlets switches and a light fixture; the rest I leave to pros. I’ve often said the most dangerous thing under the hood of a conventional vehicle is the battery. Full of acid; produces hydrogen gas when charging and capable of delivering up to 1000 amps. Yes I know the Prius battery is different tech but let’s not pretend that there are no risks there.
 

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You can see and smell leaking gasoline; you can’t “see” high voltage and/or amp electricity. BTW I’ve had 3 Echo machines that are now about 15 years old; never had a gas leak with any of them. For the same reason all I will do with home electrical is replace outlets switches and a light fixture; the rest I leave to pros. I’ve often said the most dangerous thing under the hood of a conventional vehicle is the battery. Full of acid; produces hydrogen gas when charging and capable of delivering up to 1000 amps. Yes I know the Prius battery is different tech but let’s not pretend that there are no risks there.
You can't see what's on your back. And I didn't say that the danger is confined to leaking gasoline. If you rely on visual or olfactory indicators for your safety, you could be in trouble.
No one should operate beyond their experience and knowledge, or outside manufacturer's recommendations.
 
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