[Zagnut27]

Have they improved in a customers order? Amazon certainly knows that, but we are hearing folks having orders for months. Apparently not.

Orders for months?

 

[Erik Latranyi]

Unless the have no clue, they know what's ahead. Belvedere was the first casualty, there will be more ahead. That's the only way they know, or have been taught. Unfortunately, you can't cost cut your way out when your products are ancient history. I've said it before and say it again, look at Chrysler Australia, they were much smaller, but they had very similar problems. Old products and zero desire to "properly invest", in new products. Down the tube they went. Mitsubishi couldn't right the ship either and by 2007 they were gone. The same thing will happen here without real leaders that know the NA business here. Amazon execs, isn't what they need, IMHO.

Brampton could be next since STLA Large will be Windsor and Toluca.

Yes, the blind celebrate short term gains and fail to see long term problems.

 

[valiant67]

Yes, Sergio and his minions hate Brampton

 

[Adventurer55]

We have talked about both plants and how they are far away from their center of influence in Michigan. Who knows, they may mothball them so if they ever return to markets they've abandoned they can build new products there.

 

[vBD]

Canada has 'free trade agreement' with the EU, too. This might add export volumes to some/all of the ev models/variants from chrysler, dodge, jeep (lightly reskinned as an alfa e-segment cuv andor a lancia or even say (just speculating) nextgen maserati quattroporte? Recon? Wagoneer S? While also benefitting from the usa federal ira incentives, too. "Stla large" or Giorgio evo family of architectures now being the predominant new shared at-scale one for all the n american brands, esp the chrysler and dodge electrified models. I guess scale economies work better for such models in canada given very strong us$ and the free trade agreement. i believe mexico has one too with eu for cars, as well as with brazil+argentina and a very competitive currency too. THAT matters greatly even if is not the last word in such FINANCIAL over-the-cycles decisions. Such a strong dollar over time will cost usa auto industry esp gm and ford...all else being equal. It has happened before!

 

[Erik Latranyi]

Brampton was always on the chopping block because no Jeeps were built there. It was expendible in the next merger.

Fortunately, the real engineering and expertise from PSA has a chance to save the company with all new platforms (STLA) that get away from the junk created by FCA.

Giorgio was so bad that it was totally discarded for the WL Grand Cherokee and does not share a single part or dimension with Giorgio.....that is from the engineers, not internet posers pretending to know something.

The new powertrain for Compass is another poor decision by the Sergio yes-men who are running North America into the ground.

 

[hmk123]

The tunnel vision in these discussions still surprises me. To quote from the PBS documentary "Triumph of the Nerds" about the PC revolution: "A nerd is someone who uses the telephone to talk about the telephone".

Just a few observations. While FCA has had and continues to have its share of quality issues I personally would not use Ford as an example of quality. First of all we know how poorly they handled their issue with the DCT, second the cracked block issue on some EcoBoost engines and then lately Ford's own CEO admitting that they still have a way to go. Improving Ford's quality remains job #1.

I just watched a report about Toyota engineers taking a Model Y apart and admitting they are quite a bit behind in their engineering efforts when it comes to building EVs. And this is coming from the largest automaker in the world.

I am neither for or against EVs but did notice that my local dealerships (within 40 miles) have 118 Ariyas, 81 Mach-Es, 220 ID.4s, 147 MB EQSs and 89 Mirais in stock. Maybe inventory is so high because they are so popular. But my guess is that it is because the adoption rate is still low.

Right now FCA is one of the most profitable automakers. So they did something right. And of course, Jeep's success invites competition. Not only with the Bronco but next with the Scout. When Stellantis will have to give up some of its gravy train it better finds something new.

At least with the Charger EV concept they are trying to think outside the box. But no doubt, the future looks very challenging.

I just find it "comical" that a lot of people think they know/knew how to do it better. When the 200 came out and the market was starting to shift lets think about what it would have taken to not only beat the Camry but even the Fusion. The ZF 9 speed would have had to be a hit right from the start like the 8 speed. But it wasn't. Even if it had had more rear leg room the next issue in my opinion would have been that they did not have a very competitive 4 cylinder. That is where Fiat was supposed to come in. But a 200 needs a different engine than a Fiat 500. Ce la vie. IMHO they tried with what they had. Let's not forget, most thought FCA would be gone by now and here we are with record profits. Doesn't that mean shifting to RAM and Jeep was the right thing to do? To get to 2030 you first have to make it to 2023.

And as we all learned the world can change in a day...

 

[Adventurer55]

The tunnel vision in these discussions still surprises me. To quote from the PBS documentary "Triumph of the Nerds" about the PC revolution: "A nerd is someone who uses the telephone to talk about the telephone".

Just a few observations. While FCA has had and continues to have its share of quality issues I personally would not use Ford as an example of quality. First of all we know how poorly they handled their issue with the DCT, second the cracked block issue on some EcoBoost engines and then lately Ford's own CEO admitting that they still have a way to go. Improving Ford's quality remains job #1.

I just watched a report about Toyota engineers taking a Model Y apart and admitting they are quite a bit behind in their engineering efforts when it comes to building EVs. And this is coming from the largest automaker in the world.

I am neither for or against EVs but did notice that my local dealerships (within 40 miles) have 118 Ariyas, 81 Mach-Es, 220 ID.4s, 147 MB EQSs and 89 Mirais in stock. Maybe inventory is so high because they are so popular. But my guess is that it is because the adoption rate is still low.

Right now FCA is one of the most profitable automakers. So they did something right. And of course, Jeep's success invites competition. Not only with the Bronco but next with the Scout. When Stellantis will have to give up some of its gravy train it better finds something new.

At least with the Charger EV concept they are trying to think outside the box. But no doubt, the future looks very challenging.

I just find it "comical" that a lot of people think they know/knew how to do it better. When the 200 came out and the market was starting to shift lets think about what it would have taken to not only beat the Camry but even the Fusion. The ZF 9 speed would have had to be a hit right from the start like the 8 speed. But it wasn't. Even if it had had more rear leg room the next issue in my opinion would have been that they did not have a very competitive 4 cylinder. That is where Fiat was supposed to come in. But a 200 needs a different engine than a Fiat 500. Ce la vie. IMHO they tried with what they had. Let's not forget, most thought FCA would be gone by now and here we are with record profits. To get to 2030 you first have to make it to 2023.

And as we all learned the world can change in a day...

I agree with most of your observations. What I and others talk about is the draught between 2016 and now for everything but a couple of Jeeps and one Ram. We all know why that happened. The key part is can they fill the pipeline this time and still keep the money makers refreshed as well? That's the big challenge ahead. And oh, the elephant in the room? Reach an agreement with the UAW and CAW too. Very big shoes to fill.

 

[Erik Latranyi]

The tunnel vision in these discussions still surprises me. To quote from the PBS documentary "Triumph of the Nerds" about the PC revolution: "A nerd is someone who uses the telephone to talk about the telephone".

Just a few observations. While FCA has had and continues to have its share of quality issues I personally would not use Ford as an example of quality. First of all we know how poorly they handled their issue with the DCT, second the cracked block issue on some EcoBoost engines and then lately Ford's own CEO admitting that they still have a way to go. Improving Ford's quality remains job #1.

I just watched a report about Toyota engineers taking a Model Y apart and admitting they are quite a bit behind in their engineering efforts when it comes to building EVs. And this is coming from the largest automaker in the world.

I am neither for or against EVs but did notice that my local dealerships (within 40 miles) have 118 Ariyas, 81 Mach-Es, 220 ID.4s, 147 MB EQSs and 89 Mirais in stock. Maybe inventory is so high because they are so popular. But my guess is that it is because the adoption rate is still low.

Right now FCA is one of the most profitable automakers. So they did something right. And of course, Jeep's success invites competition. Not only with the Bronco but next with the Scout. When Stellantis will have to give up some of its gravy train it better finds something new.

At least with the Charger EV concept they are trying to think outside the box. But no doubt, the future looks very challenging.

I just find it "comical" that a lot of people think they know/knew how to do it better. When the 200 came out and the market was starting to shift lets think about what it would have taken to not only beat the Camry but even the Fusion. The ZF 9 speed would have had to be a hit right from the start like the 8 speed. But it wasn't. Even if it had had more rear leg room the next issue in my opinion would have been that they did not have a very competitive 4 cylinder. That is where Fiat was supposed to come in. But a 200 needs a different engine than a Fiat 500. Ce la vie. IMHO they tried with what they had. Let's not forget, most thought FCA would be gone by now and here we are with record profits. Doesn't that mean shifting to RAM and Jeep was the right thing to do? To get to 2030 you first have to make it to 2023.

And as we all learned the world can change in a day...

At least the Ford CEO admits their quality issues. Did Sergio ever do that as the company sank to the bottom of nearly every quality survey under his watch?

Oh, he fired Doug Betts, the guy trying to improve quality.

 

[hmk123]

At least the Ford CEO admits their quality issues. Did Sergio ever do that as the company sank to the bottom of nearly every quality survey under his watch?

Oh, he fired Doug Betts, the guy trying to improve quality.

In previous posts I remember you saying they were on the right track under Cerberus. Granted, our 2009 Journey is our most used vehicle with now 150k miles on it. But in its first 100k miles I had to replace the TCM, ECM (under emission warranty), crank & CAM shaft positioning sensor, Throttle Body, Radiator, Alternator, A/C compressor and evaporator. The turn signal stalk became flaky twice. Oil Pan and Timing Case Sealant were covered under Lifetime power train warranty. And I have serviced (fluid changes and maintenance) the vehicle to a fault. Anyway, just like other owner stories these are anecdotal and don't necessarily mean anything. Cars are very complex machines and unfortunately some of us will be unlucky. I am not saying improving their quality reputation would not have helped them. Just saying I hear "horror" stories about BMW, Hyundai, Ford, etc. as well.

We are all creatures of habits and also perception. In my opinion to get people out of Camrys and similar cars would have taken an amazing product. For a while Chrysler had impressive hits due to clever designs. But we all saw that even with a sales wonder like the 300C it only lasts so long. Sure, of course, trying to get on-top and stay on top through quality like Toyota did is probably the right approach. But how many have tried?

Hyundai/Kia have obviously had a decent success story in the U.S. Did FCA have the means to beat them on all fronts? And again, when it comes to profitability didn't they choose the most obvious path for them? I think Sergio saw how much money he had to put on the hood of cars like the 200, saw how dealer space is limited and for better or worse put his bet on higher margin vehicles like Jeep and RAM.

What I do find sad is that in the long life of the HEMI they have not addressed weak points like the exhaust manifold bolts. If Sergio cheapened out on things like that then shame on him. But there were others before him and there have been others since then and I don't think I have seen much change there.

 

[Adventurer55]

In previous posts I remember you saying they were on the right track under Cerberus. Granted, our 2009 Journey is our most used vehicle with now 150k miles on it. But in its first 100k miles I had to replace the TCM, ECM (under emission warranty), crank & CAM shaft positioning sensor, Throttle Body, Radiator, Alternator, A/C compressor and evaporator. The turn signal stalk became flaky twice. Oil Pan and Timing Case Sealant were covered under Lifetime power train warranty. And I have serviced (fluid changes and maintenance) the vehicle to a fault. Anyway, just like other owner stories these are anecdotal and don't necessarily mean anything. Cars are very complex machines and unfortunately some of us will be unlucky. I am not saying improving their quality reputation would not have helped them. Just saying I hear "horror" stories about BMW, Hyundai, Ford, etc. as well.

We are all creatures of habits and also perception. In my opinion to get people out of Camrys and similar cars would have taken an amazing product. For a while Chrysler had impressive hits due to clever designs. But we all saw that even with a sales wonder like the 300C it only lasts so long. Sure, of course, trying to get on-top and stay on top through quality like Toyota did is probably the right approach. But how many have tried?

Hyundai/Kia have obviously had a decent success story in the U.S. Did FCA have the means to beat them on all fronts? And again, when it comes to profitability didn't they choose the most obvious path for them? I think Sergio saw how much money he had to put on the hood of cars like the 200, saw how dealer space is limited and for better or worse put his bet on higher margin vehicles like Jeep and RAM.

What I do find sad is that in the long life of the HEMI they have not addressed weak points like the exhaust manifold bolts. If Sergio cheapened out on things like that then shame on him. But there were others before him and there have been others since then and I don't think I have seen much change there.

No, there isn't much change yet. And things will never change unless the company culture begins to change.

 

[valiant67]

I just find it "comical" that a lot of people think they know/knew how to do it better. When the 200 came out and the market was starting to shift lets think about what it would have taken to not only beat the Camry but even the Fusion. The ZF 9 speed would have had to be a hit right from the start like the 8 speed. But it wasn't. Even if it had had more rear leg room the next issue in my opinion would have been that they did not have a very competitive 4 cylinder. That is where Fiat was supposed to come in. But a 200 needs a different engine than a Fiat 500. Ce la vie. IMHO they tried with what they had. Let's not forget, most thought FCA would be gone by now and here we are with record profits. Doesn't that mean shifting to RAM and Jeep was the right thing to do? To get to 2030 you first have to make it to 2023.

Sadly there is a terrible amount of irony in this paragraph.
The 200/Camry comparison now is the Jeep small CUV/RAV4 comparison. And again, Toyota prevails while FCA stumbles with lackluster offerings. Switching to small Jeeps instead of Dart and 200 didn’t prepare them any better to compete with Toyota.
Stellantis seems to maybe be trying to redeem Compass. We will see. Cherokee is done with no replacement, it simply wasn’t competitive.

 

[Adventurer55]

Sadly there is a terrible amount of irony in this paragraph.
The 200/Camry comparison now is the Jeep small CUV/RAV4 comparison. And again, Toyota prevails while FCA stumbles with lackluster offerings. Switching to small Jeeps instead of Dart and 200 didn’t prepare them any better to compete with Toyota.
Stellantis seems to maybe be trying to redeem Compass. We will see. Cherokee is done with no replacement, it simply wasn’t competitive.

I don't think there will be another Cherokee. For more then one reason. They are really only competitive in three or four categories. Ram, sinking to the competition if not updated soon. Grand Cherokee, Wrangler, like Ram needs updated. The Wagoneer line. Those are it. And if they don't find a way to make Dodge and Chrysler competitive in vehicles and quality and profits, they will be gone.

 

[hmk123]

Sadly there is a terrible amount of irony in this paragraph.
The 200/Camry comparison now is the Jeep small CUV/RAV4 comparison. And again, Toyota prevails while FCA stumbles with lackluster offerings. Switching to small Jeeps instead of Dart and 200 didn’t prepare them any better to compete with Toyota.
Stellantis seems to maybe be trying to redeem Compass. We will see. Cherokee is done with no replacement, it simply wasn’t competitive.

You are totally right, looks like the Cherokee was another vehicle that they not only missed the mark with but also stopped investing much into it. One advantage Toyota has is that they sell the RAV4 everywhere. I guess a good goal/benchmark would have been to come up with a Cherokee that is able to be successful in Europe and China as well.

And I admit, a lot that FCA came out with was already in development under DC and Cerberus. The Dart, 200 and Cherokee all did not do that great. Curious to see how well the new GC will be doing over the next few years. As Adventurer55 mentioned, most of their money is made with a few products.

Differentiation these days is hard and I think that is why we see the lack of product at Chrysler. I have my doubts how well fully electrified Alfas will sell. And betting the next gen Dodges on EVs and inline turbo sixes seems a gamble in itself. Tomorrow is never guaranteed and it is only to get tougher from here on.

 

[Adventurer55]

The Compass is their version of a world vehicle. It stands for different things in different countries. Here, it needed to be more off road and class leading powertrain. It was never that here. It's better now, but this crap of doing these upgrades near its end of life is embarrassing. It needed these things at the beginning here. It's not an American idea, so that's probably why Auburn Hills never embraced it.

 

[Erik Latranyi]

In previous posts I remember you saying they were on the right track under Cerberus. Granted, our 2009 Journey is our most used vehicle with now 150k miles on it. But in its first 100k miles I had to replace the TCM, ECM (under emission warranty), crank & CAM shaft positioning sensor, Throttle Body, Radiator, Alternator, A/C compressor and evaporator. The turn signal stalk became flaky twice. Oil Pan and Timing Case Sealant were covered under Lifetime power train warranty. And I have serviced (fluid changes and maintenance) the vehicle to a fault. Anyway, just like other owner stories these are anecdotal and don't necessarily mean anything. Cars are very complex machines and unfortunately some of us will be unlucky. I am not saying improving their quality reputation would not have helped them. Just saying I hear "horror" stories about BMW, Hyundai, Ford, etc. as well.

We are all creatures of habits and also perception. In my opinion to get people out of Camrys and similar cars would have taken an amazing product. For a while Chrysler had impressive hits due to clever designs. But we all saw that even with a sales wonder like the 300C it only lasts so long. Sure, of course, trying to get on-top and stay on top through quality like Toyota did is probably the right approach. But how many have tried?

Hyundai/Kia have obviously had a decent success story in the U.S. Did FCA have the means to beat them on all fronts? And again, when it comes to profitability didn't they choose the most obvious path for them? I think Sergio saw how much money he had to put on the hood of cars like the 200, saw how dealer space is limited and for better or worse put his bet on higher margin vehicles like Jeep and RAM.

What I do find sad is that in the long life of the HEMI they have not addressed weak points like the exhaust manifold bolts. If Sergio cheapened out on things like that then shame on him. But there were others before him and there have been others since then and I don't think I have seen much change there.

You need to remember that Cerberus was only in charge for 22 months and most of that was with Daimler still holding their 9.9% and feeding the press negative information to hurt the company.

But what did Cerberus accomplish?

They finished the Pentastar, one of the best V6 engines ever.
They brought the WK2 Grand Cherokee to market with great styling.
They had a great design for the 2011 Chrysler 300 that Sergio watered down (I heard a rumor that Ralph almost left the company over this)
Despite the largest collapse in auto history, they got the company cash flow positive and setup engineering teams globally.
They embarked on Project D to directly take on Toyota Camry (Remember the 200C show car with RWD that Sergio threw away?)
They were preparing for electrification by tapping into GEM at the time.

They improved interior materials for all vehicles away from the Daimler grey plastic. Sergio continued this improved interiors, but cheapened them with poor fit/finish. Just compare a 2010 to a 2015 to hear the squeaks and rattles. Not everything was great.

Yes, they went cheap on some parts and rightly got burned for it. But having Jim Press out front was brilliant and we can only speculate on what would have happened if the markets did not collapse.

But look at the quality rankings after FCA came in....they went down to the gutter, something Cerberus was not going to allow to happen. They put Doug Betts in charge of quality and Jim Press wanted to transform the company into a more Toyota-like quality system.

Cerberus is an asterisk in the company's history. Such a short time between the monsters of Daimler and FCA, Cerberus is forgotten and so are all its good and bad.

 

[GasAxe]

Remembering the 200C and the excitement around it just hurts. Did we ever get to see the original 2011 300 redesign?

 

[DustDevl340]

I can't necessarily speak to other people's experience with their vehicles, but the 2018 Compass I had for 3.25 years was a crappy vehicle from day one. Plagued with incessant quality and reliability issues, I would say it's easily the most deficient and compromised vehicle of any of the original FCA models. Oil burning, rough shifting, suspension failing, software functions that never worked right, not to mention poorly fitting body panels and trim. As its final issue, the GPS unit failed in the entertainment unit. Thankfully, it was leased and I was able to just hand back the keys. I could never in good conscience have sold it to someone else.

Wow. We had a loaded 2018 Compass Trailhawk for 3 years before the Wrangler and it was excellent. We were very happy with it. No major issues, comfortable, well built and reliable. Luck of the draw maybe, I dunno.

 

[World14]

When the 200 came out and the market was starting to shift lets think about what it would have taken to not only beat the Camry but even the Fusion. The ZF 9 speed would have had to be a hit right from the start like the 8 speed. But it wasn't. Even if it had had more rear leg room the next issue in my opinion would have been that they did not have a very competitive 4 cylinder. That is where Fiat was supposed to come in. But a 200 needs a different engine than a Fiat 500.

Totally long after and not beneficial to anything being discussed, but;
The Tigershark 2.4 definitely was never in a 500. 500X yes, but a 4-door crossover is no 2-door city car.

 

[Rob Johnson JR]

Ford's biggest quality problems has been caused by rushing to market all its newest models. But there are some bright spots. CR (I know rather hated here but still an important factor in the auto biz) recommends the Maverick Hybrid and gave it great reviews......AND that model is the CHEAPEST one. They also recommend the Edge, Lincoln Corsair and Nautilus.