2024 Fiat 600 Small SUV Caught Undisguised

Tony K said:

Maybe, but we have lots of accidents that you don't typically see in Europe, particularly in Germany because the driver fluency and better adherence to rules is much greater. I saw two scenarios here in Indy that could easily have ended badly just this week that don't happen in Germany because people know better. One today was a Jeep Wrangler passing multiple vehicles on the right coming into a traffic circle that were stopped behind a box truck, the other was stopping to let someone opposite turn in front of a driver when there's a right through lane on the offending driver's side and heavy traffic. I was beside myself. These people are careless at best.

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Everywhere has some bad drivers, a one off anecdote is statitically insignificant.

"Traffic fatality rates per 100 million VMT in 2013 are estimated for the 44 U.S. States and the 43 high-income comparison countries with populations of 1,000,000 or more.
States and comparison countries are assigned to four groups based on population density, urbanization, and climate (factors that influence fatality
rates). Within each of these four groups, the rates for U.S. States are similar to the comparison countries of Western, Northern, and Southern Europe as well as Australia, New Zealand, and Canada; they are usually lower than in the high-income countries of Eastern Europe, East Asia, the Middle East, and Latin America."

Germany to Indiana is apples to oranges. These states are apples to apples:

Fatality Rate per 100 Million VMT in States and High-Income Countries
With Population Densities Greater than 150 People per Square Kilometer

The only states as densly populated as many European countries are the Bos-Wash corridor states.

1 UK
2 MA
3 Switz
4 NL
5 NJ
6 Germany
7 RI
8 MD
9 Israel
10 CT
11 NY
12 Italy
13 Belgium

The only statistic that really stood out was how well Germany and Israel do with drunk driving (9 and 3 percent of fatalities), and how poorly Americans do (30%, Italy and Belgium were almost as bad at 25%). Cut out the drunk drivers and the US is vastly superior. Japan and Taiwan were the best of the Asians, and their death rate was twice MA. "The alcohol variable, however, is probably not consistently measured across countries."

There just aren't that many places in Europe that are like Indiana.

Fatality Rate per 100 Million VMT in States and High-Income Countries
With Lower-Than-Median Percent in Metro Areas ≥ 500,000, < 150 People/Sq. Km., Temperate Climate
1 Ireland
2 Austria
3 OR
4 IA
5 ME
6 IN
7 NE
8 Slovenia
9 NC
10 AL

A couple of things stood out in this list. First, only Ireland, Lithuania and Croatia are really good population density comparisons. The other European countries have over 100 people per sq km. Second the drinking and driving problems with Americans is the same, only Slovenia has the same problem as the US.

From the other groups the only things that stood out were that Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France and Portugal have the same drinking statistics as the US, while Utah has a lower rate like most of Europe, and CT, MT, SC and TX have a bad drunk driving problem even for the US. Also 1/4 of the people in MT, MS and NH don't wear seatbelts, while nearly 1/3 of fatal crashes in HI are on motorcycles.

"Much of Western Europe is densely populated and highly urbanized; much of the United States is not. When the Western European countries are compared to the States that most closely resemble their demographics and climate, the ranges of fatality rates for those countries and those States largely overlap and the rankings of these countries and the States are not significantly different."

plymouth1 said:

Still looks a lot like the 500X to me. The price of the 500X is probably why it didn't sell well (in the US) and this looks like it will be more of the same

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This car is not planned as a 500X replacement although some may look at it as such.

It's smaller and on technically less evolved platform with much less sophisticated suspension solution.

CMP platform also offers less than desirable packaging. Cars on it ar usually the least roomy in class for a given size.

500x replacement was planned to grow in size and to be on more advanced platform than this one but AFAIK plans for 500X replacement were abandone. Now sure about Renegade II.


@Erik Latranyi

PSA 1.2 engine has huge problems and you can find a lot about them on French web sites.
The problem is with a timing belt. It's placed in a an oil and there may be some residuals and can lead to a very early failure.

This year they've started production of a Gen III engine which has timing chain and problems should be mitigated. But problem is that nobody knows which car has received Gen II and which has received Gen III versions. There is a mix.
We only know that 136 HP and MHEV versions should be with timing chain.

T_690 said:

This car is not planned as a 500X replacement although some may look at it as such.
It's smaller and on technically less evolved platform with much less sophisticated suspension solution.
CMP platform also offers less than desirable packaging. Cars on it ar usually the least roomy in class for a given size.
500x replacement was planned to grow in size and to be on more advanced platform than this one but AFAIK plans for 500X replacement were abandone. Now sure about Renegade II.
PSA 1.2 engine has huge problems and you can find a lot about them on French web sites.
The problem is with a timing belt. It's placed in a an oil and there may be some residuals and can lead to a very early failure.
This year they've started production of a Gen III engine which has timing chain and problems should be mitigated. But problem is that nobody knows which car has received Gen II and which has received Gen III versions. There is a mix.
We only know that 136 HP and MHEV versions should be with timing chain.

Click to expand...

EMP1/CMP/STLA Small is only needed for vehicles smaller than 4,253 mm (167.4 in) x 1,815 mm (71.5 in), EMP2/STLA Medium can take over from there. 500X is 4,273 mm (168.2 in) x 1,786 mm (70.3 in), so a direct replacement would need to be on STLA small unless the plan is to widen it to 1,815 mm (71.5 in) and put it on EMP2/STLA Medium, which given it is an SUV isn't a bad plan.

An AWD Avenger 4xe is coming, which will solve the twist beam rear axle problem. Remember EMP1/CMP/STLA Small is a new platform dating to 2018, at the 5 year mark in 2010 GM-Fiat Small SCCS was a technically less evolved platform with much less sophisticated twist beam rear suspension solution as well, it was evolved in 2014 to get an independent rear suspension and AWD, now we are almost a decade later and it is time for replacement, which will be done with both EMP1/CMP/STLA Small at the small end and EMP2/STLA Medium at the larger end.

eCMP/STLA Small as a BEV has 134-161 HP and the Avenger has a 250 mile range on the WLTP combined test. That is far superior to the 94-153 hp New 500e that doesn't even have a 200 mile range on the optimistic European WLTP combined test, that means it really isn't fit for US service. STLA Small BEV is supposed to have up to a 300 mile range.

EMP1/CMP STLA Small has been fitted with 1.2T 3 cylinder engines up to 155 HP, 1.5 TD engines up to 128 HP, a 1.5T 4 cylinder gas engine with 194 HP and a 113 HP NA 1.6 4 cylinder. . Fitting the Prince turbo should not be a problem.

For US and Asian service neither a 1.2T 3 cylinder nor a 1.3T 4 cylinder is a good fit, a 1.5T 4 is good for Japan, a 1.6T 4 is a better choice for China and the US, and a 2.0T 4 is the proper upgrade engine for Japan and the US. Likewise, in both the US and Asia you need to either make a 4 meter vehicle (3999 mm), or you might as well make a 4.5 meter vehicle (4499 mm), no sense in messing with the in between lengths. In the US a 4 meter vehicle pretty much means a 2 seater. A 4.5 meter vehicle can be much roomier than a 4273 mm vehicle, EMP1/CMP/STLA Small packaging is a non issue in the US.


STLA Medium:

"The EMP2 V3 is the third iteration of the EMP2 platform, which debuted with the second-generation DS 4 in 2021.[5][13][14] The improved platform introduced 70 percent new components compared to the previous iteration.[15] It supports mild hybrid, plug-in hybrid and battery electric powertrains." The BEV version is also known as eVMP. PSA was already planning to sell this version of EMP2 in the US as a crossover version of the 308, so US market models can be easily made on EMP2 v3.

EMP2/STLA Medium covers everything from 4,253 mm (167.4 in) x 1,815 mm (71.5 in) on a 2,620 mm (103.1 in) wheelbase to 5,309 mm (209.0 in) x 1,920 mm (75.6 in) on a 3,275 mm (128.9 in) wheelbase with gasoline engines up to 2 L (Prince turbo up to 1.8L in China). For car guys it offers a 355 hp AWD PHEV. This could easily be used for a Tonale/Hornet replacing AWD PHEV crossover (4,530 mm (178.3 in) x 1,840 mm (72.4 in) 2,637 mm (103.8 in) wheelbase) with far better performance and fuel economy.

EMP1/CMP/STLA Small is only needed for vehicles smaller than 4,253 mm (167.4 in) x 1,815 mm (71.5 in). Almost every Dodge and Chrysler model was longer than this (Omni, early Colt and Crossfire are the exceptions), but there are many that were narrower.

EMP1/CMP/STLA Small should be the basis for several models for Dodge and Chrysler. I don't think there is a market for a narrow car over 4,700 mm long in the US anymore, but there are several good cases for smaller economy high performance cars: