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DaveAdmin said:
So other than engine and transmission/suspension controllers, what are the differences?

Suspension mounting points... materials... anything else?
118 inch wheelbase for the Ghibli; 120.9" for the 300. LED turn signal indicators for the Ghibli.
 

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Don't forget dealer experience.

A Toyota and a Lexus may share even more than a 300 and a Ghibli do, but the owners will have a very different visit when they go for service or repair.
 

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Isn't Ghibli a look at the next generation 300?
 

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I would not underestimate the effects of a diffent positioning: different ads, different testimonials, different races and so on...

That will probably trigger different customer expectations and this will be market-relevant because in this way they can reach a wider customer audience even if technically they have many parts in common.

And this is not the first neither the last car technically very similar with different positioning. Not to mention other products...
 

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IMPERIAL4EVER said:
118 inch wheelbase for the Ghibli; 120.9" for the 300. LED turn signal indicators for the Ghibli.
That is interesting, the wheelbase is shorter than the 300 but yet the length between the wheelwell and the front door appears longer. Cab Rearward? So will the 300 and Charger follow the Ghibl's dimensions or will the 300 go the direction of the Quattroporte? IF the 6C/169 is Ghibli based and if the 300, Charger, Challenger/Barracuda (6C), are as well then where will they build all these vehicles? If I remember right, the Maserati plant was to have a MAX capacity of 50,000 units a year. The current LX plant, I believe can build 5 different models in which you already have the 300, 300 right hand drive, Charger, and Challenger, that leaves only room for 1 more.
 

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Jackratchett said:
That is interesting, the wheelbase is shorter than the 300 but yet the length between the wheelwell and the front door appears longer. Cab Rearward? So will the 300 and Charger follow the Ghibl's dimensions or will the 300 go the direction of the Quattroporte? IF the 6C/169 is Ghibli based and if the 300, Charger, Challenger/Barracuda (6C), are as well then where will they build all these vehicles? If I remember right, the Maserati plant was to have a MAX capacity of 50,000 units a year. The current LX plant, I believe can build 5 different models in which you already have the 300, 300 right hand drive, Charger, and Challenger, that leaves only room for 1 more.
I believe they will build 6C/169 in Italy along side Ghibli..
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I would also assume Alfa will be in Italy. I think Sergio is beginning to realize that if you build luxury cars in American factories, nobody will believe they are luxury cars. The big thing about luxury cars is, the aura is 90% of the difference.

There are definitely dimensional shifts between 300C and Ghibli/Quattroporte, but I'm thinking it's a new version of the same car, with higher grade materials.
 

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DaveAdmin said:
I would also assume Alfa will be in Italy. I think Sergio is beginning to realize that if you build luxury cars in American factories, nobody will believe they are luxury cars. The big thing about luxury cars is, the aura is 90% of the difference.

There are definitely dimensional shifts between 300C and Ghibli/Quattroporte, but I'm thinking it's a new version of the same car, with higher grade materials.
I think you summed it up.

Mike
 

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My real question about the Ghibli/300C/6C/169 relationship is whether or not Fiat will invest in moving the 300 more upmarket to separate Dodge and Chrysler, or will they pull a Daimler and keep Chrysler down in order to have breathing room between the brands? I would think that Chrysler could be American luxury and style while the Alfa and Maserati are purely European influenced, tuned, and styled. They should be able to happily co-exist with Chrysler moving up-market some (say $10k) to create space with Dodge. That pricing would still leave a premium to Alfa and Maserati higher still.
 

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From what I've seen, and I believe tryphon could confirm this, but attention to detail. In other words, Maserati is particular.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I think attention to detail is a common factor now. Differentiation, I think, comes from:

1) Styling -- if they need to move the suspension around to achieve it, they will ;)
2) Powertrain -- Maserati/Ferrari engines; or retuned VM diesels; or... (and more controls on the automatic)
3) Tuning -- both suspension and powertrain
4) Cost -- the higher selling price means that lighter or better-feel parts (from leather to sway bars) are practical on the Maserati

They could not make the Ghibli, IMHO, without having Chrysler doing the basic engineering; there's no way they could sell enough to make it pay. But with the basics handled by Chrysler, and Maserati retuning, it works.

Just like the Dart -- probably couldn't be profitable if Chrysler had to do the design from the ground up.
 

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Not sure if I understand the question...it would probably be much quicker to list the commonalities than the differences.

I think the point is the hard stuff, given that the styling and the touchy-feely stuff is pretty obvious.
Ill say this: even shared parts aren't necessarily "the same" thing. Take the 8hp for example, the shifting logic is different (think about having two equally built basketball players, one is KB, the other not: the difference is in the brain). Otherwise a 300,a Bentley, a BMW, etc would all shift identically; but that's not the case.

Materials, are different; even apparently silly stuff like the dashboard support is made of magnesium in order to save weight.
The actual architecture is different (not talking platform here, I bet you'll be able to build a Ghibli and a 300 in the future on the same line...technically, that is).
The tolerances are worlds apart (according to a tester some of the tolerances on the new QP and Ghibli exceed those of some Ferrari models).

Suspension is different; not all wishbones or multilink are the same. Take this pic of the 2009qp with the Maserati Low stacked Wishbone
http://www.midwestscc.com/forum/attachment?id=2504

And compare it tot the one from a 300 (Mercedes S floating arm, or high wishbone suspension)


Ghibli has frameless windows, different steering mechanism, a different optional AWD system, a different exaust system...

The engines are different. Even the V6 with its shared block is not comparable to a Pentastar.

In short: are they ENTIRELY different? No, they share some components (less than 10% is what I heard); but they are very different cars (today). They spent a ton of money (some say they went overboard) at Maserati for the development of the QP, exactly because they couldn't take an SRT300/charger and reskin it (they did test that option early on, and decided it wouldn't work) and also because they didn't want to compromise on some aspects.

I think the renewed Challenger will be the first to sport some of the changes coming to Chrysler products. There we will see how much the new stuff differs from what we have today.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Of course, one question you can't answer, and I don't mean that as an accusation, is how much of this came from work done on the 2011 Lx redesign and the ongoing work on the next generation of L-cars.

The double wishbone suspension is a prime example. We know the Chrysler people moved the mounting points on the 2011s and I suspect they would have done more, but it would have taken too much time and money.

You're probably right that the front suspension is almost completely different.

But really, to me, it's an extended version of remaking a movie. When you do the Eddie Murphy version of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, you use the original for the basic supports and elements, but then you make a lot of changes to fit the massive ego -- I mean different characteristics -- of the lead. (Actually that's a terrible example, maybe I should have used the Hitchhiker's Guide example.)

Again, though, it's pretty clear that they started with the Chrysler and then made numerous changes... just as Chrysler started with the Mercedes stuff and shoved 'em all into their own box.

They accomplished a huge amount -- I'm sure it does feel completely different from 300C -- that's no small achievement in itself given what they share. I am hoping that, in the fashion to which I've become accustomed, those changes do work back to the Challenger and next-gen 300. I'd like to once again drive a Chrysler full-size that feels more like a Neon.
 

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DaveAdmin said:
I would also assume Alfa will be in Italy. I think Sergio is beginning to realize that if you build luxury cars in American factories, nobody will believe they are luxury cars. The big thing about luxury cars is, the aura is 90% of the difference.
What about all of the models that BMW and Mercedes produce in South Carolina and Alabama, respectively? I doubt many buyers think any less of them (or are even aware of the country of origin).
 

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svevar said:
What about all of the models that BMW and Mercedes produce in South Carolina and Alabama, respectively? I doubt many buyers think any less of them (or are even aware of the country of origin).
It's the difference between a BRAND that has power with one that does not.
 
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