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Discussion Starter #1
i have a 85 plymouth reliant 4.4 Liter with efi, when its a cold start you have to give it gas to keep it running and when you do that the whole car shakes and runs ruff, black smoke comes out the exhaust, smells like gas, i have replaced the air filter, and fuel filter, it pulls up 2 codes 15,21 15 - is no signal from speed sensor, 21 - is no signal from oxygen sensor (in process of getting those replaced) after driving it adds code 32 - which for 85 models means EGR faliure.
after warming up it starts normal, also the oil dipstick smells like gas and oil gets dirty quickly.
Can you help, thanks?
 

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Start with the basics. When was the last tuneup (time and distance)? Besides the air and gas filters, within the last 15K to 20K miles, have you replaced the spark plugs, distributor wires, distributor cap, ignition rotor and PCV valve? If not, do those.

Also, since both code 15 (no speed sensor signal) and code 21 (lazy O2 sensor) show up, there's a good chance that there is a wiring/connection problem. How long has the car behaved this way? Was it this way when you bought it? Oxygen sensor is ignored by the computer at cold starts, for about 2+ minutes, and EGR does not function with engine cold. So those are not causing the poor cold operation (unless the EGR valve is stuck open; but then you'd get a rough warm idle).

Check the ground connection at the driver's side rear corner of the block, where a ring tongue terminal from the wiring harness bolts to the block. The wire often gets frayed or cracked, or breaks. This is the ground for many of these sensors.

Also, check carefully at the battery. Don't just give it a visual, disconnect the battery, clean the posts and terminals with a brush, and inspect the cables where they exit the clamps, for corrosion, bad insulation, loose strands. Check the battery voltage with everything off (should be about 12.4V or higher) and at idle (should be about 13.7 to 14.0 volts).

In addition, check ALL rubber and plastic hoses and lines for cracks or breaks - power brake booster line, PCV hoses, and all the vacuum lines.

Finally, check the braided ground strap between the passenger side firewall and the intake manifold. This is another ground that will cause issues if not solidly connected.

Report back what you find and we'll go from there. If that doesn't do it, there are some other plugs at the computers to look at. And welcome to Allpar!
 

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I wouldn't be concerned about the oil just yet-- a bit piston ring blowby is inevitable in any engine, and if you're running seriously rich (which it sounds like you are), your oil is going to have more soot and gas in it. Especially check the line to the MAP sensor, those can cause poor running. I think you're dealing with multiple problems, but certainly nothing that can't be fixed. The 2.2 is a very solid and reliable engine, and the problems that usually crop up are wiring and sensors rather than serious internal faults.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I have only had this car for a few months, i bought it for a hundred dollars form my uncle, it was sitting outside for two years, surprises me that it runs as good as it does, im not the most car savy person with parts replacement and stuff (only 18 years old) but ill look everything over for lose, bad connections, vacuum leaks, etc., its got 167,000+ miles on it, its a great car i love it, i think its mostly wiring problems , because i have a back up light and turn signal light with shorts in them, and one of the plugs for the radiator fan relay is slipping out of place causing code 35, found that out today.
 

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If it sat for 2 years, was a new battery installed? If not, if it was just charged up, it probably is failing or will soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
same battery but has good voltage, is anything suppost to be conected beside the purge control solenoid? because i have a electrical plug that runs next to that and nothings there.
 

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Extremely rich when cold might be an issue with the MAP sensor. Definitely check the vacuum line that goes to the MAP sensor. If it is still has a hard plastic section in the line, it might have a hair line crack in it. I have also seen these lines fill with moisture (and even freeze) blocking or restricting vacuum. I have also seen the MAP sensor line at the throttle body carbon up so badly that it restricts or blocks the vacuum signal.
Also check the electrical connection plug to the MAP sensor, although you usually get a code when that has a problem.
 

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willrappold said:
same battery but has good voltage, is anything suppost to be conected beside the purge control solenoid? because i have a electrical plug that runs next to that and nothings there.
Yes, an electrical plug and 2 or 3 vacuum lines run to the purge control solenoid. If left open, there will be a vacuum leak that will make the car run richer, due to lessened vacuum to the MAP sensor. If the vacuum lines are intact, but no solenoid operation, there will be little effect on the car's operation, but you should get a code 31 stored.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
no the plug and vacuum lines are on the purge solenoid., but theres another plug that runs up near the purge but its to short to reach it, that why i was wondering if some other solenoid or something was suppost to be right beside it. Im starting to think my egr valve is stuck open, i get horrable gas mileage 140-190 miles to a tank. where is the egr valve and the MAP sensor located? How do i get them tested to see if there good or bad? I don't know what im looking for, i tried to find pictures but cant find anything online, like a motor diagram where every sensor, solenoid, etc. is located
 

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EGR should be somewhere on the exhaust manifold. About $50 at NAPA, Advance Auto or AutoZone. MAP is probably on the firewall. At least it was on my '90 and '92 Acclaim. As mentioned check the vacum line that connects the MAP to the throttle body (TBI). The vacum lines harden and crack from the heat of the engine - a very common failure point. I had three EEK's (86 LeBaron GTS, '90 Acclaim, '92 Acclaim) that logged over 800K total miles and I never needed to replace the MAP sensor in any of them.

As Bob mentioned, if you don't know for certain, give it a complete tune up (plugs, wires, rotor, cap, PCV). It'll give you a good base to work from if there are still issues.

Properly tuned this vehicle should get 25 mpg easily. Probably more.
 

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EGR is not going to kill your gas mileage that much. An O2 sensor might. However, BEFORE replacing any parts, please check the ground connections and battery connections as I suggested. With multiple codes, it's far more likely to be a wiring problem. You really don't want to replace parts and still not solve the problem.

The EGR valve is on the passenger side of the intake manifold, and has a vacuum hose to it, from a black plastic vacuum transducer which in turn has a few vacuum hoses. The MAP sensor on an 85, if it hasn't been relocated, is inside the car behind the passenger kickpad, above the logic module (computer). It has a vacuum hose and a 3-wire pug to it, and is a black plastic module.
 

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The EGR can be tested fairly easily. Have a helper rev the engine while you watch the valve pintle (the little metal rod visible under the mushroom-shaped thing on the valve) after the engine is warm. It should move up and down. No movement indicates either a failed diaphragm or a bad transducer (or a problem in the vacuum line going to the valve). If you grab the pintle and pull up on it with a pair of needlenose pliers, the car will try to bog down if the EGR is operating properly. No change probably means a carboned up valve. I agree with Bob that it's probably a wiring fault. The kickpanel was a sort of stupid spot to put the MAP sensor, as it allows condensation to get into the sensor and confuse or kill it. It was a serious problem until Chrysler moved the sensors to the strut tower.
As for being young, don't let that stop you from learning how to work on these cars. I'm 19, and I've been working on my Spirit since I was 16. The K-cars are very easy to work on, and the computer systems are simple enough that you don't really need much to diagnose and repair. Get a set of factory service manuals, they will help IMMENSELY.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I need a belt that goes on the alternator and when i try to look up the parts on line i get alternator and water pump belt, i thought the water pump was internal, is this still the right belt to put on it?, the belts too old to see any part numbers on it, like i said 85, SE, 2.2L with F.I., also what type of refrigerant does the compressor take, R-134A or the old stuff R-18?
 

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If I remember correctly the serpentine belt drives the alternator and water pump while a seperate belt drives the AC compressor. There is a third belt to drive the power steering pump.

The waterpump is not internal. If you follow the lower radiator hose it connects directly to the water pump.

The original freon for your vehicle is R-12 which is no longer available and very difficult to find unless a technician just happens to have some in stock. It's also very expensive. The AC system can be converted to R-134a and works quite well. You cannot simply top off with R-134a - you must convert over. The freons are not compatible with each other. It also requires different oils.
 

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Right, there's a (relatively) serpentine belt for the alternator and water pump (the alternator has a ribbed pulley and runs off the ribbed side of the belt, the water pump has a flat pulley and runs off the back of the belt), and standard V-belts for the P/S and A/C. The alternator/water pump belt is tensioned by physically moving the alternator, and the P/S belt is tensioned in a similar manner (moving the pump adjusts belt tension). The A/C belt has a separate tensioner. The A/C tensioner and the P/S pump both have square holes for using a 1/4" cheater bar to get the proper tensions.
As Doug mentioned, you can't get the R-12 that this system uses any more. There are conversion kits available at AutoZone and the like that have an adaptor for the fill port to fit an R-134a hose, but these almost inevitably end up ruining the system and necessitating more expensive repairs. I've never done the conversion (my Spirit uses R-134a from the factory), but I imagine it's not anything too complicated. The only expert help you'd need is to have the system drained of the R-12 and evacuated and refilled with R-134a when you're done with the conversion. The last step is VERY IMPORTANT to ensure that the system has no moisture remaining in it. Other than that, I imagine that the job is primarily just replacing hoses, which you can do on your own.
EDIT: It's against Federal law to vent R-12. So not only could you injure yourself by venting it yourself, you could face serious legal action. Take it to a shop, don't take the risk.
 

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B10alia said:
Right, there's a (relatively) serpentine belt for the alternator and water pump (the alternator has a ribbed pulley and runs off the ribbed side of the belt, the water pump has a flat pulley and runs off the back of the belt), and standard V-belts for the P/S and A/C.
That's for 1988 and newer. His 1985 has the conventional ribbed belt that encircles both the water pump pulley and alternator with the ribbed inside of the belt. The 1984-88 water pumps rotate the opposite direction from later pumps, and the pulley is different.

R12 is still available to a technician with a certificate, but is harder to find. If the system is still R12, it will have a (threaded) Schrader valve on the ports. If it has been converted to R134, it will have quick-disconnect adapters installed over the original ports, and is supposed to have a conversion sticker underhood. It's a job best left to a pro, or someone who has been trained or trained himself. I have done several conversions, they MUST be done right or the system can clog and fail.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
okay, now does anyone know where i can get another washer fluid reservoir, mines cracked all to pieces, all i can find is a washer fluid pump, guess i try junkyards.
 

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www.arizonaparts.com has a jug for 1984-93 Daytona for $45. Not sure if it's the same, but since the platform is, it might fit. You can email Marty and he can tell you if it's the same tank.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
What can cause the car to go from idle in park, to reving up the engine (like if you put the gas peddal down half way and held it there) until you hit the brake or tap the gas to get it to quit, if that made any sinse.
 
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