[pSun]

Hello, In the event you haven't been following the rebirth, I am bringing back to life, one, 1987 Dodgy Daytona Shelby Z; 96,737 original miles, just R/R'ed water pump/ alt. + A/C belt/ thermostat (195 degree)/ cooling system flush with new coolant, 1 can of Seafoam for good measure.

Here are the original conditions: while turning left or while under accelleration load or climbing an incline there was a subtle shimmy which "seemed" to be coming from the front right side of the vehicle. It is now a pronounced shake and appears to be getting worse each and every mile/second. I originally thought it may be clutch chatter but it wasn't consisitant throughout the powerband or while turning in both directions. My next thought was CV's but upon hitting the book, I learned about the intermediate shaft and it's bearing, the mirage of CV styles and the wheel bearings (this brings a specific question; Oreilly's carries one STYLE of CV that is they claim will work for all the styles, is this a true statement or do I need to do as the manual suggests and first determine which style of CV this driveline makes use of and replace it with the same?).

While repairing/replacing the water pump, I correctly torqued the passenger side motor mount, which initially made the ride feel better. Now about a hundred miles later and one unanticipated need for a FULL throttle acceleration (1st and 2nd), doaght!!! The "shake/shimmy" that was just something I knew that I would need to correct soon is in need of immediate repair:

1) replace all three, passenger side motor mount, front transmission mount and driver's side transmission mount.
2) replace the right CV and intermediate shaft support and bearing.
3) replace the front wheel bearings on both sides.

This is where I ask...are there any special considerations before I jump in. This is my primary transportation, daily driver and I need to have this malady corrected by this weekend, Sunday night for next weeks life necessities.

I don't believe in chasing problems with money and new parts but I can only see improved performance by replacing the "short list" of parts above. What I really want to know is if I am missing something that could be contributing or if there are any parts I need to exercise EXTRA caution or follow special steps to remove/replace these parts without making a new problem by mistake?

I am very open to suggestions and I have already learned that some of you are simply "system authorities" on these mid/late 80's Dodge, Chrysler + Plymouth engineering feats.

 

[Bob ONeill]

Of course bad mounts should be replaced. But...

Start by checking a few things.

First the front wheel bearings and tie rod ends (inner)...
Jack up one side of the car with the other wheel on the ground (so it won't move) Then with hands at 12:00 and 6:00 on the tire try to rock the wheel (push in at bottom, pull out at top and reverse). If movement, bearing. Then with hands at 3:00 and 9:00 do the same. Some small movement is expected but if the steering wheel doesn't move yet the wheel does suspect inner tie rod end.

Next consider wheel balance.

CV joints usually 'click' when turning sharp. Open window on one side and turn to that side then turn back. Notice clicks if any. Do the same for the other side.

Strut mounts tend to let go around 80,000 or so. You 'may' want to consider new struts and mounts but not just because. Do this if you have not enough dampening when pushing down on the front end. You should be able to push down hard a few times and the car should settle almost right away. If there's excessive bounce then it's time for struts/shocks.

 

[pSun]

Bob ONeill- while turning right and left with the windows open I hear no clicks or clicking; during left turns, as of today it sounds like the tire is rubbing on the fender.
- I will perform the tests you suggested and let you know.
- I have done the bounce test on the struts and shocks, they are currently performing unbelievably SUPER well, I simply can't believe how well this overall suspension feels.
- I hear you on verifying the condition of the wheel bearings and tie rods, I am on it, thank you for suggesting it and the method.
- I did order the mounts as each one looked worse than the other (Johnny @ polybushings.com).

 

[Bob ONeill]

Sounds like tire rubbing may be tire rubbing. Check that side (both sides) as the 225/50R15 tires tend to do that a bit more so than the narrower tires. But if not it may be bearing. I can't imagine what else it could be.

 

[pSun]

Bob ONeill- I am not much for BUTT KISSERY, however, I feel compelled to launch to you a hearty THANK YOU. I have been hung-up on the CV "failure" and have not fully inspected all the steering/suspension components. The manual itself calls out the ball joint, tie rod end and posibly the control arm bushing :readbook: ; I have had CV failures before in my Integra, which very strongly resemble the way this feels under load (accelleration, and on an incline). I am noting some differences while driving and regardless of the actual culprit, again, thank you for the proverbial SLAP across the check. It may be a CV and it may not but it is most probably as you suggested I inspect, the tie rod end, ball joint or possibly the control arm bushing.

-While, as you also suggested, there is nothing wrong with replacing bad motor and transmission mounts, they aren't going to correct my current problem; they will offer strong support for the front end upon correcting this shimmy.
-Once again, thanks for having the SACK to tell me in a respectful authoritive manner to look at the most probable symtom related components!!!

 

[Bob ONeill]

No worries, been there done that. Do you watch NCIS? I'd like to think of it as more of a 'Gibbs' slap.

 

[pSun]

I had to back 40 BURNER the Daytona shimy.

I performed the 6-12 & 3-9 wiggle/shakes, looks and feels very suprisingly solid. Upon further inspection the right inner CV boot is wide open and the lubericant is everywhere. So, at a minimum, I am taking it all apart to fully inspect.

I have run into a small problem, however, the manual says to remove the speedometer gear from the transmission housing prior to attempting to remove the R drive shafts. I see (from under the car) what I expect is where the sensor or cable is on the top of the t-mission housing above and on the front side in relation to the R intermediate shaft. I don't see what is holding it in though. I can see 2 wires coming from the cylindrical object I presume to be where the speedometer gear should be but as I mentioned...I can't figure out how to remove it?

I spent the last hour and a half searching the FAQ's and last 5 pages of Daytona forum threads; if I missed the very instruction I need, I appologise but humbly accept any and all guidance and I need to have this auto back in Full Mission Capable status ASAP.

p

 

[Bob Lincoln]

There is a single 10mm bolt on top of the sensor, to one side of the cable. Remove the bolt and pull up on the sensor. It may be in there a little tight.

 

[pSun]

[sub]Bob Lincoln: Thank you for responding. I am on my back in the driveway, after removing the exhaust shroud, I can feel the bolt... but just barely, I have no room to put on any of my sockets, and none of my combo wrenches fit either. Is there a special tool on the market for this darn fastener? If not the only way I can see this getting done is to remove the intake manifold, intake ducting and all the plumbing so that I can maybe get down there from the top?[/sub]

[sub]Any other suggestions or tools IDEAS are very welcome.[/sub]
[sub]p[/sub]

 

[pSun]

While attempting to get the speedometer bolt out the outer CV fell out. This showed me one of the failures I had; the inner CV is SSG (Saginaw) and is held in by a ring clip. Well it had snapped, which may have been the initial problem. The inner CV boot had a 1/2" crack/tear where the restrant band would have been. So while I am working on this speedo bolt the the whole outer CV and the guts of the inner let loose (since the lower "A", anti sway, brake caliper and steering linkage are all unbolted.

With the outer removed but not the inner "housing", intermediate shaft and carrier journal, I decided I was getting that bolt no matter what I had to remove the intermediate shaft. I removed the air box, inlet and outlet to the intercooler and all the air ducting. This gave me a reasonably good angle on the bolt in question. Not perfect but certainly much less of a chore. I took some pictures as I plan to make a cut-out in the speedo sensor so that I don't have to remove all the stuff from the top next time. Just enough that a deep 10mm socket can be used to R/R as necessary verse removing all air box and intercooler air ducting.

To summarinze the R shaft removal and inspection: 1) the SSG (turbo) boot has a an approximently 1/2" long tear right under where the inner restrant band attaches it to the CV housing, 2) the clip/ring that holds the tripod inplace in the housing has snapped, 3) there is one spot in the inner CV housing where there is some very mild visible wear and a slight wear depression can be felt. I don't know if this is scrap at this point or if it is OK to reuse. I do know I am having innitial difficulty locating a replacement boot and clip/ring.

Is there anyone that stocks these components, so that I can rebuild my CV. A new CV is $70 and a rebuild is $60, not bad and redily available: the problem I have with them is they are the ACI type and my car has the SSG's. One additional problem is that I don't know how to separate the intermediate shaft from the inner CV?

 

[Bob Lincoln]

Wow. On a TBI engine, it's easy to reach the speed sensor from the top. I'll have to look at my turbo. It has no intercooler, but I seem to remember I could reach the sensor and the speedometer cable easily.

 

[chuzz]

I'm pretty sure that the parts to rebuild one will cost you more than $70 and they're a real pain to rebuild. If it were mine, I'd just buy the new one and put it back together. But then again, I'm pretty lazy and don't want to do a job more than once, if at all possible.

 

[pSun]

Bob Lincoln, chuzz: I appreciate your inputs.

I looked further into the parts, not everyone carries the stuff for the turbo axles and then not everyone carries the parts for the Saginaw axles. I did find that Westbay/Napa carries the rebuild kit which includes a new boot, the boot clamps, grease and the ring/clip for the tripod. It is $21 plus change and tax; manufacturers part #,

86-2208-D

Westbay/Napa part #,

CVB 6862208

chuzz: I have heard horror stories my entire life about how spooky and nightmarish "CV's" are. I have to tell you that this did take me quite a while to get apart. Everything was foriegn to me; the brake caliper is only held on by one guide stud, the torque on my wheel bearing nut was too much for my impact tool and compressor, the speedo sensor nut took me 2 whole days to make the right decision and plan for removal, heck, even the lower "A" arm hardware through me for a loop. All that being said in addition to the parts aren't in yet...I find the Saginaw R axle design to be super simple but reasonably sound design. I am so amazed that a simple wire ring clip holds this jazz together (literally blows my mind). The parts are all in very good shape, the Haynes actually covered all the important details. I would have gone ahead and purchased the new half/shaft for (as low as $39.99 plus tax [Autozone]) except that I would have had to pay the shop to remove the old inner housing and press in the new one; an additional $30. That is reasonable. Like you suggested around $70 should do it when not paying for someone elses labor. I got out of it for $28 including freight and tax, a lot of sweat and some missing skin. The big payoff is everything I learned I am able to show my 2 teenagers how to do.

I will post the photos of how I modified my speedo-sensor for faster removal and install. Thanks again for all the assistance and support so far.
p :cheers:

 

[soloflite]

I mever pull ot, simply cuz i forget about it. Lol. If u pull the cv ez, it wont hirt anything. Just a pita to get at especially on 1st gen turbos..

 

[pSun]

Hello,

I finally learned what I needed to do to separate the intermediate shaft from the inner CV housing. I went to my trusted local drive line specialist (who, doesn't perform any work on CV stuff), he took one look at it and said that it looks like it is just stuck. He rigged up a quick fixture and applied some impact force; after 10 or so good hits, moving the inner housing about a 1/16 of an inch, plus or minus a couple of thousandths. So I thanked him, took it home and carefully placed the intermediate shaft in the vice, shielded with some sacrificial wood and gingerly pounded the inner housing out.

It turned out the guaranteed parts kit from NAPA CVB 6862208 was the wrong one, so I purchased a new/rebuilt half-shaft. The reassembly went well, everything torqued. The car fired up somewhat reluctantly after sitting the past 8 months with a fresh charge on the battery. After a lengthy warm up, I set out to find out how I had performed. The shimmy is gone but...the is a pronounced clunk to take its place.

The clunk happens while rolling in neutral and when in gear and is very pronounced when under load. I didn't drive far, only 600 feet-ish. The sound reminds me of a "U" joint failing, it sounds like it may be coming from the left side of the car but I am uncertain. While installing the Right axle, I noticed that the inner boot seal clamp is very close to the inner front "A" arm mount; also, there is evidence of some work on this mount. I don't know why but it looks like someone had done some hammer work. It is possible that the inner CV boot clamp locking device (buckle?) is striking the upper portion of the "A" arm mount. I hate to say it but I hope this is the case as it is currently the only thing I see that could be messed up. This may be why the previous CV failed too.

I am going to put it up on jacks, in neutral and rotate the wheels by hand to see if it is making contact. If this is happening, I will remove the R drive axle and do some hammer work of my own, hopefully a millimeter or two will make all the difference in the world. If not and it is the problem, I suppose I may require the assistance of a collision repair shop???

The Daytona sounded very HAPPY to be running, It is such a shame that I can't go let it feel the road yet!

I will share the results of my findings as soon as I know something conclusive. In the interim, any suggestions or ideas are certainly welcome.

 

[pSun]

I made some time, put her up on jackstands in nuetral, the wheels and axles rotated freely without contact. This prompted me to start up the engine, put it in first and give it a listen/look. What I heard was normal but what I saw was another situation altogether. I am not sure why but when I was examining the right side wheel spin I reached down and gently applied some pressure to the tire; to my utter surprise, the wheel stopped almost immediately. Next I did the same on the left side, that thing wasn't stopping for anything shy of brakes!

So, I just replaced the right axle reusing the same intermetdiate shaft, does anyone happen to have seen this before or have any ideas?

 

[pSun]

Despite the 9 month since I made any headway on this problem...I currently suspect the intermediate shaft bearing.

I have been reading and researching the noise that started after I installed a new rebuilt passenger side drive shaft with the original intermediate shaft and bearing.

Yesterday I intalled a used different intermediate shaft with right driveshaft installed, both from an 87 T1 Sundance.

I need to reservice the tranny, bolt up the sway bar and torque the right side hardware. I am hope that through this "troubleshouting", I have lost the noise; if so the intermediate shaft bearing was the culprit.

 

[pSun]

Upon taking the car for the test drive, I heard no noise for about 150', then a quieter version of the preceeding noise. I believe I have solved the delema; the used parts I put in work better than the original intermediat shaft abd bearing with the new axle.

I am going to order the carrier bearing from FWD as soon as they are restocked. I suppose I could get a non turbo axle also...I don't realy want to mix apples and ornages.

If anyone happens to have a spare set-up from FWD I would be happy to replace it upon when they have restocked. PM me if you posses that interest.

For what it is worth, the Daytona starts up like a champ, the brakes feel very weak after sitin so long. I hoe it doesn't take too long to get the new bearing.

 

[pSun]

Thanks to everyone that assisted me with this fault.

I finished installing the new "non-equal" passenger drive shaft today. This car had a bad half shaft innitially, upon replacing it I damaged the intermediat shaft carrier bearing. Since FWD is back ordered for the next 4-5 weeks on their bearongs the un-equal shaft was a viable temp if not potential fix.

Thanks again.