Allpar Forums banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Ok, Been a while since ive been on here. My 2.2 Sundance has been running awsome. till yesterday. Let the brother in law drive it to work, :( he got to work fine, then got home fine. then when he went leave with it it would not start. So he imeditaly asumed it was the fuel pump. I check the fuses couldnt find one that had anyhthing to do with the fuel system. Couldnt find anything that looked like a fuel relay in the book. Is there a fuse or fuel relay? aside from that fact i then pulled the fuel line to see if anythign was comming through. Put the line in a glass jug turned on the key nothing. Then i remembered that some of these cars the fuel pump only comes on when the crank is turning. Is that a feature on the 2.2? so then i tested that, there is a little bit of fuel comming throuhg the line when i crank. i ve seen many people use a pressure tester on the line to see if it is the 17-45 psi, but i have solid fuel lines, not rubber, so i have no real way to install one of those with out replacing the lines. enigine will crank and thats it. on like the 8th attempt to crank, it hit a lick, but not run. thought about the fuel filter, but if the PSI was low wouldnt it at least run for a second and then die from starvation?

Any ideas. any thing that is an easy test would be awsome but i know sometimes these arent easy fixes.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
31,989 Posts
Always best to check fault codes before taking everything apart.

http://www.allpar.com/fix/codes/index.html

There may or may not be a fuel pump relay. Usually when there is, it is cascaded off the ASD (Automatic Shut Down) relay. So, the load side of the ASD relay being closed will energize the coil side of the fuel pump relay. If the ASD relay won't close, neither will the fuel pump relay.

The ASD relay closes for 2 seconds when you turn the key to ON or START. If it doesn't sense the Hall effect pickup signal from the distributor (which shows that the engine is turning), the computer opens the ASD relay. If you turn the key to ON, the fuel pump will run for 2 seconds and then stop. Turning the key to OFF and then ON again will allow a 2nd fuel pump cycle. The 3rd time, the fuel pump will not run until you turn the key to the LOCK position, or crank it in the START position. So you can test whether the fuel pump is energizing by turning the key to ON and listening for the pump to run briefly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,098 Posts
Ok, Been a while since ive been on here. My 2.2 Sundance has been running awsome. till yesterday. Let the brother in law drive it to work, :( he got to work fine, then got home fine. then when he went leave with it it would not start. So he imeditaly asumed it was the fuel pump. I check the fuses couldnt find one that had anyhthing to do with the fuel system. Couldnt find anything that looked like a fuel relay in the book. Is there a fuse or fuel relay? aside from that fact i then pulled the fuel line to see if anythign was comming through. Put the line in a glass jug turned on the key nothing. Then i remembered that some of these cars the fuel pump only comes on when the crank is turning. Is that a feature on the 2.2? so then i tested that, there is a little bit of fuel comming throuhg the line when i crank. i ve seen many people use a pressure tester on the line to see if it is the 17-45 psi, but i have solid fuel lines, not rubber, so i have no real way to install one of those with out replacing the lines. enigine will crank and thats it. on like the 8th attempt to crank, it hit a lick, but not run. thought about the fuel filter, but if the PSI was low wouldnt it at least run for a second and then die from starvation?


Then i remembered that some of these cars the fuel pump only comes on when the crank is turning. Is that a feature on the 2.2?
Yes, that is true, except for the first 2 off-on cylcles of the key without cranking the engine. Beginning with the third attempt to move the key to on, no fuel will be discharged until the computer sees sync pulses from a working pickup coil when the engine is cranked.

Keep in mind that with a bad timing belt or a bad pickup coil, no sync pulses can be generated and the fuel pump relay will not close. Most 1993 models came equipped with a seperate fuel pump relay , but I am not sure about the Sundance. If it does not have a fuel pump relay, the ASD relay functions as the fuel pump relay.

Before going too far, check that the distributor rotor is actually spinning when the engine is cranked. When was the last time the plugs, wires, rotor, and cap were replaced? How about the timing belt? Is it original?

Any ideas. any thing that is an easy test would be awsome but i know sometimes these arent easy fixes.
On throttle body cars, you can pour about 1/2 cup of gasoline down the throttle body opening after you remove the air box. Hold the gas peddal down part way and crank the engine. If it starts and runs for a second or two, you know that it is a fuel delivery problem (pump, filter, or relay).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Ok checked code. just 55. nothing. i can hear the pump whirring and splashing in the tank. I am told there is at least 2 gallons in the tank. I changed the filter. nothing still.

Pulled the fuel line again.
turn on key - no gas from the line,
cranked the engine - little gas
gas in the TB and cranked - started for a second then dies fuel out of the line like crazy.
fuel line on gas in the TB - started for a second then dies.

If i crank it and look down the TB would i be able to see gas from the injector?
IF i pull the injector and crank would i see gas coming out the injector supply?
Can I test the regulator on the TB, is that a fail-able part?

I am going to check the codes again later, maybe i missed it but in pretty sure it was just 55.

BTW i really appreciate the help on this stuff. The parts houses are completely useless.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
31,989 Posts
Two gallons in the tank might be so little that the pump can't pick up enough to start. Last time I replaces a gas tank, I put two gallons in, and it started up, then died 30 seconds later, ran out of gas. Had to add a couple more gallons to get enough to the fuel pump pickup. Add some more gas and see what happens. It sounds like the pump is working and some gas is coming out, just not enough.

And never run below 1/4 tank. The pump sits in the fuel and relies on being submerged in it to cool it. Running low too many times will shorten its life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
OK so i put antoher gallon in it, i dont have a bigger jug.

One of the vacume line was loose and i fixed that, and disconnected a few things then put it all back together, still nothign, but now im coding 12 and 25.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
31,989 Posts
OK, code 25 is fuel injector coil shorted or open.

Things to check: the fuel injector plug at the throttle body (which has a metal retaining clip around it, be sure it's there, or it WILL come loose; check the harness itself where it runs behind the valve cover - it can fray or crack open from years of heat; and check the braided ground strap from passenger firewall to intake manifold - if broken or intermittent, the fuel injector won't get proper ground.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
i found that the strap was loose, fixed that still not running. I cannot find anything that looks fraid or broken. Only coding 12 now.

So pump, check, spits gas everywhere when attempting to start.
filter- check went ahead and changed it.
Relay have yet to been able to determine if it has one or where it would be.
Spark, would assume that it wouldn't run for a few if the spark was bad.
timing belt. same as above.

so where could the relay be, and if it is the asd where is that and can i swap it?

* found a picture that looks more like my car then the one in the manual. and it pointed out that the relay closest to the driver side headlight was the asd. whether this is right or not i pulled the relay from what i believe to either be the AC relay or the radiator fan relay and swapped it. still nothing still no code.

i appreciate the help but it think it is a lost cause. If i figure it out ill let you all know what it was. btw this car only has 60,000 miles on it.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
31,989 Posts
Either you have a relay box on the left fenderwell, or several relays mounted by the shock tower. If it's a relay box, the label on the underside of the lid tells which relay is which. A shop manual would tell which is which if mounted discretely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,098 Posts
If the ASD relay is bad you would get no spark since the ignition coil is only energized when the ASD relay closes. Furthermore, the ASD relay only closes when the distributor provides sync pulses to the computer. It is the computer that actually closes the ASD relay. As mentioned, the ASD relay must be closed before the fuel pump relay can close and turn on the pump.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
ok so other people not as knowledgeable about dodge and Plymouth keep saying replace the fuel pump. is this really the best option? i mean i can hear it pumping but no fuel to the line at the same time : but fuel does come when the engine is turning. i just don't get it.


John Wood said:
If the ASD relay is bad you would get no spark since the ignition coil is only energized when the ASD relay closes. Furthermore, the ASD relay only closes when the distributor provides sync pulses to the computer. It is the computer that actually closes the ASD relay. As mentioned, the ASD relay must be closed before the fuel pump relay can close and turn on the pump.
Ok so it would not start and run when i put gas in the TB.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,098 Posts
I thought it did run when you put gas in it before. That is the way I read a point you made in post #4.

I think we need to establish that you have solid spark anytime the engine is cranking. I find that a nice way to check that is with a timing light and helper to crank the engine (and a good battery). Steady solid flashes from the light is what you want to see. I'm only suggesting that you do that in case you have an intermittant pickup or a flakey ASD relay (or wiring to the ASD or pickup in the distributor). If there are intermittant sync pulses, the ASD relay will drop out (open) and the fuel pump relay will also open. Also, an intermittant pickup will not give you solid flashes from the timing light since the ASD relay also energizes the ignition coil.

Does that make sense to you?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Yes gas in the TB it runs. for a bit.

Sorry I was making a clarifying statement.

(if the asd was bad) it would not start and run when i put gas in the TB? "
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Just for more confirmation.
When i turn on the key (first time) with the fuel line pulled from the TB fuel will or will not pump from the line?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
31,989 Posts
Right. So you have a fuel delivery problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,098 Posts
troyradioboy1 said:
Just for more confirmation.
When i turn on the key (first time) with the fuel line pulled from the TB fuel will or will not pump from the line?
I assume you are just turning the key to run (i.e. not cranking).
When you do this, does the fuel pump make noise for a second? If it does, and you get no fuel, assume that the pump is bad.

If it does not make any noise (hum or whirring sound). You need to re-set the computer by disconnecting the battery for a few seconds and reconnecting it up. Then move the key from off to run. You only get 2 chances to do this. The computer will not allow you to keep flooding the engine by turning the key off and on, but it will allow this process to reset if the computer see sync pulses (i.e. the engine has been cranked and the computer receives the sync pulses).
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
31,989 Posts
Not always. Crank to test fuel flow. When the ASD relay opens after 2 seconds at ON, fuel pump turns off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
John Wood said:
I assume you are just turning the key to run (i.e. not cranking).
When you do this, does the fuel pump make noise for a second? If it does, and you get no fuel, assume that the pump is bad.

If it does not make any noise (hum or whirring sound). You need to re-set the computer by disconnecting the battery for a few seconds and reconnecting it up. Then move the key from off to run. You only get 2 chances to do this. The computer will not allow you to keep flooding the engine by turning the key off and on, but it will allow this process to reset if the computer see sync pulses (i.e. the engine has been cranked and the computer receives the sync pulses).
when i turn key to run. i get no fuel. having someone else turn the key, i can hear the pump run in the tank.
when i crank engine i get a little fuel.
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top