[Dancehealer]

Hi Folks,

I have a '98 Sebring Convertible, 2.4L, with the 41TE Transmission. I was getting P0700 and P0740 codes and was checking all the connectors and wiring and replaced the trans fluid. In the process of checking things I messed up the range speed sensor.

So, I removed the lever body on the trans and replaced the speed range sensor. I also replaced the input and output sensors while I had everything out of the way. I reconnected the manual lever and gear cable to the shaft and it is moving to each gear properly with the shifter. I refilled the trans with ATF +4 until it reached the hot zone on the dipstick when the engine was at normal operating temperature.

The car starts up fine, but when I put it in reverse, drive, 2nd or 1st gear, the trans does not engage. It just starts to roll back like it's in neutral. So, only park and neutral are working. This was not a problem before I started working on the car. So, I'm wondering if I did something in the process of re-installing everything.

Any ideas on why my trans is not engaging at all?

Thanks for any help!

 

[ImperialCrown]

Welcome to Allpar. Probably an internal hydraulic leak related to what you had apart?
By 'range speed sensor', do you mean the 'transaxle range sensor' or TRS?
By 'lever body', do you mean the valve body?
Nothing electronic will prevent P, R, N or 2nd gear from working.
While putting the valve body back in, you need to be sure that the accumulator pistons and springs that sit on top of the valve body go back into their case bores. It is easy for a piston scarf ring to become dislodged and become stuck between the case and valve body and prevent sealing.
The front pump has to draw ATF up through the filter and needs a seated valve body to do so. A 'loss of prime' means that the pump can't suck the fluid up into the chamber to begin pumping and build pressure. Revving it slightly in Neutral may restore prime and it will then have pressure to engage.
Do you have any fault codes now? You can see the gears change from your VF instrument cluster display?
You replaced the filter as well? How did the bottom of the trans pan look debris or metal particle-wise?
P0740 may be from a worn torque converter clutch and front pump.

 

[Dancehealer]

Welcome to Allpar. Probably an internal hydraulic leak related to what you had apart?
By 'range speed sensor', do you mean the 'transaxle range sensor' or TRS?
By 'lever body', do you mean the valve body?
Nothing electronic will prevent P, R, N or 2nd gear from working.
While putting the valve body back in, you need to be sure that the accumulator pistons and springs that sit on top of the valve body go back into their case bores. It is easy for a piston scarf ring to become dislodged and become stuck between the case and valve body and prevent sealing.
The front pump has to draw ATF up through the filter and needs a seated valve body to do so. A 'loss of prime' means that the pump can't suck the fluid up into the chamber to begin pumping and build pressure. Revving it slightly in Neutral may restore prime and it will then have pressure to engage.
Do you have any fault codes now? You can see the gears change from your VF instrument cluster display?
You replaced the filter as well? How did the bottom of the trans pan look debris or metal particle-wise?
P0740 may be from a worn torque converter clutch and front pump.

Thanks for the welcome and for such a thorough reply and explanation!

Yes, sorry for the mis-labeling of things! I think I have been under this car too long all week
and was getting to the point of "mental oatmeal" when I posted here. I do mean the "TRS"
and the "valve body."

When I first did the job I did put the accumulator pistons back in their respective bores in the casing.
I had to go on-line and in the FSM to figure out what they were and where they went. They just came
hurling down on me without warning when I removed the valve body originally. There is nothing in
the FSM that warns you about that. There are two seal rings (piston scarf rings?) on each of the
pistons and they did not come off between the case and the valve body. Do the notches in the pistons
have to be lined up with the bores in any particular way?

I have everything apart again and my battery cables are disconnected, so I can't check at the moment for DTCs. Before I did that I could see the VF Instrument Cluster display showing each gear as I moved the shifter.

There was no debris or particles in the pan. I did replace the filter with one purchased from AutoZone. It seemed rather loose to me, not a snug fit. Sure enough, when I took the pan down last night I discovered that the filter had fallen off the valve body. It was at the bottom of the pan! Would that stop the pump from properly pulling the oil up and cause loss of prime? I went over to Chrysler today and got a Mopar one and it fits quite tight and snug on the valve body.

I'm hoping it's not the Torque Convertor Clutch, coz I had that replaced just over a year ago and it's just past it's warranty.

If I still have the same problem after re-assembling everything, is there some way of knowing for sure if it's the pump?

Besides revving in neutral, is there anything else I should do to create prime so there is enough pressure to get the oil where it needs to go?

The FSM Diagnostics for the P0740 code advised testing the voltage at the TCC Solenoid Connector (specifically at the fused ignition switch output) as well as testing the ohm across the Solenoid prongs. The diagram shows a connector for only 2 prongs. So, is this a different solenoid than the Solenoid Pack that has an 8-way connector? If so, where is the TCC Solenoid located?

Thanks for your time and patience!

 

[Bob Lincoln]

Having a disconnected filter may cause a pressure problem, I think. And did you make sure the accumulator piston's spring(s) were reinstalled, and in the correct orientation?

 

[Dancehealer]

Having a disconnected filter may cause a pressure problem, I think. And did you make sure the accumulator piston's spring(s) were reinstalled, and in the correct orientation?

Okay, well, I hope the new filter corrects the pressure problem.

I just now put the accumulators back in with the springs facing down toward the valve body and the base of the pistons up into the case bores. I wasn't sure if the notches on the open side of the pistons had to face in any particular direction?

 

[Bob Lincoln]

I don't know, I've only dropped the pan on an A500 (42RH) that's basically a Torqueflite with electric overdrive. The accumulator piston and spring fell out, and I put them back in the way they came out, and all was well. I did have to use a dab of Vaseline to hold the piston in place, as it would just drop out until the valve body was in place.

 

[Dancehealer]

I don't know, I've only dropped the pan on an A500 (42RH) that's basically a Torqueflite with electric overdrive. The accumulator piston and spring fell out, and I put them back in the way they came out, and all was well. I did have to use a dab of Vaseline to hold the piston in place, as it would just drop out until the valve body was in place.

Yeah, I know what you mean! I wasn't sure why they designed it that way. I rested the accumulators on the valve body and then positioned them in as I pressed it into place.

 

[Dancehealer]

Well, I got everything back together and added the fluid. I warmed it up to operating temperature and checked the level and it's at "warm" on the dipstick. I don't have any more fluid to add tonight. I revved it in neutral for awhile. I put it into gear and it didn't engage. :thumbsdown:

What's my next step? Add more fluid? Is there some other procedure I need to do to get the oil pumped to the right areas to engage? Or does this pretty much mean my pump isn't working?

 

[ImperialCrown]

Is the filter o-ring in place where the filter meets the valve body pump intake hole? Sometimes I've found 2 o-rings jammed in the hole because the o-ring will tend to stick in the valve body inlet when the old filter is removed. The filter won't 'snap' into place very well like this and the pump will tend to suck in air instead of fluid. This might feel like a car going into neutral after a hard turn, etc. as the ATF sloshes and pump momentarily sucks air, then is OK again.
Once the pump is primed, it should suck fluid. If the pump is sucking in both air and fluid, the pump 'whine' will be loud and vary in pitch with engine rpms. It will sound similar to a power steering pump whine.
It sounds like the pump hasn't primed yet and there is no ATF being drawn into it for circulation to the t/conv, cooler and clutches. A pump that is wet with ATF should seal itself well enough to begin pumping once it is turning at engine speed.
The notches in the accumulator pistons mean nothing and there is no orientation except that the piston flat tops face upwards. The rearmost (differential side?) piston has 2 return springs, the front piston has one return spring. The return springs rest on the valve body plate.
I hate to suggest adding 1 more quart that may have to be drained again, but it might be enough to cover a pump intake leak and start the pump working again.
If you need to manually prime the pump, you can try to force ATF into the cooler outlet fitting from the torque converter. This would be the one closest to the bell-housing. The t/conv drainback valve may prevent this from being done, but it may also be worth a try.

 

[chuzz]

I'm thinking it's an extra 0-ring on your filter tube. You stated that the first one didn't fit right and was kind of sloppy and actually fell out. That's a pretty good indication that the 0-ring on the one you removed probably stayed in the housing. Also, was the transmission working in all gears when you decided to do all this work? If so, then it has to be something like an extra 0-ring or you still don't have the valve body assembled correctly.

 

[Dancehealer]

Thanks for the input!

Today I added another quart of fluid, but the trans still didn't engage.

I checked for codes and got the following: P1782 - Pressure Switch Circuit 2-4; P0731 - Gear 1 Incorrect Ratio; and P0700. Does this help define the location of the problem?

I didn't think the o-ring was the issue, because the filter I bought yesterday fit snug and tight, unlike the ones I bought from the regular auto parts stores.

Nonetheless, I dropped the trans pan (I'm becoming really efficient at this! Ha!) and removed the filter to check again. The filter was still on their snug and tight. I removed it and there was no extra o-ring in there.

I'm thinking about the trans oil connectors next. Someone also suggested to me that I should remove both cooler lines and blow compressed air into both connectors on the trans to open a "bypass" that sometimes gets stuck. Does that make sense?

First, I want to confirm that I connected the right hoses to the right connections on the trans when I originally put everything back together. I connected the top hose to the connection on the "passenger side" of the trans and the bottom hose to the connection on the "driver's side" of the trans. Is that correct?

Thanks!

 

[Bob Lincoln]

I don't know, but if you reversed them, that could cause problems. Why did you undo the fluid lines?

 

[Dancehealer]

I don't know, but if you reversed them, that could cause problems. Why did you undo the fluid lines?

I undid the fluid lines because I also replaced the input and output speed sensors and the hose lines were blocking their replacement. Unfortunately, I didn't recall which hose went into which connector afterwards. The FSM doesn't indicate it either. So, I asked someone in another forum and they said that the top went to the passenger side one and the bottom went to the driver's side one. So, that's how I connected them. I also asked if the hoses were switched if that would cause my current problems with engaging the transmission and I was told, "no." However, I keep coming back to this as a possible factor. I was thinking if they were switched, that this might cause some kind of vacuum issue that inhibits the distribution of the oil for the trans to function properly. No one has been able to give me a definitive answer on which hose connects to which connector on the trans. I guess I will try switching them and see if that clears up the problem.

 

[Bob Lincoln]

Don't switch before confirming.

The pump draws fluid in from the filter pickup, that much is universally true. But I don't know which way the fluid goes through the lines on any of these transmissions.

 

[Dancehealer]

Don't switch before confirming.

The pump draws fluid in from the filter pickup, that much is universally true. But I don't know which way the fluid goes through the lines on any of these transmissions.

Hmmm, well, how do I confirm? The FSM does not clearly state which connector to fasten the respective hoses to.

Here are the diagrams from the FSM. In the diagram for the 2.4 L it appears the bottom hoses crosses over to the left side and the bottom hose goes to the right, but it doesn't show it actually connecting to the trans.

The 2.5 L diagram actually shows the connections to the trans, with the top hose going to the left and the bottom hose going to the right.

My understanding is that the passenger side connection is the return inlet from the cooler and the the driver's side connection is where the oil leaves the trans to go to the cooler. Here is a diagram of the 41TE trans with those connections:

 

[Dancehealer]

I decided against switching the hoses. All my research still shows that the upper hose goes to the inlet and the lower hose goes from the outlet back to the cooler.

Anyway, the transmission still won't engage.

Any input on the codes I got:

P1782 - Pressure Switch Circuit 2-4; P0731 - Gear 1 Incorrect Ratio

 

[ImperialCrown]

These are the set conditions and possible causes for P1782 and P0731. If you still have no hydraulic engagement of any gear, then I don't believe that these fault codes are valid.
I would almost expect a P1791- loss of prime fault if there is no pump pressure output. 2nd gear is the limp-in gear and would be present even if nothing electrical was connected to the transaxle.
I would erase the codes and retry the fault code reading.

P1782-2-4 PRESSURE SWITCH SENSE CIRCUIT
When Monitored: Whenever the engine is running.
Set Condition: The code is set if the 2-4 pressure switch is open or closed at the wrong
time in a given gear.

POSSIBLE CAUSES
CHECKING SYMPTOMS AND POSSIBLE CAUSES
LOW BATTERY VOLTAGE
HIGH LINE PRESSURE, 2-4 SOLENOID
TRANSAXLE DEFECTIVE
VALVE BODY BOLT TORQUE OUT OF SPECIFICATION
2-4 PRESSURE SWITCH SENSE CKT SHORT TO TCR OUTPUT CKT
2-4 PRESSURE SWITCH SENSE CIRCUIT OPEN
2-4 PRESSURE SWITCH SENSE CIRCUIT SHORTED TO GROUND
TCM 2-4 PRESSURE SWITCH SENSE DEFECTIVE
TCM 2-4 PRESSURE SWITCH SENSE INTERNAL SHORT TO GROUND
2-4 PRESSURE SWITCH SENSE CKT OPEN BETWEEN SOLENOID AND TCM CONNECTORS
2-4 PRESSURE SWITCH DEFECTIVE
SOLENOID PACK 2-4 PRESSURE SWITCH CIRCUIT
SOLENOID PACK DEFECTIVE
INTERMITTENT CODE P1782

P0731-GEAR RATIO ERROR IN 1ST
When Monitored: The transmission gear/speed ratio is monitored continuously while the
transmission is in gear.
Set Condition: Code P0731 is set if the ratio of the input RPM to the output RPM does not
match the given gear ratio.

POSSIBLE CAUSES
CHECKING SYMPTOMS AND POSSIBLE CAUSES
LOW BATTERY VOLTAGE
INTERMITTENT CODE P0731

Symptom:
ADDITIONAL GEAR RATIO ERROR IN 1ST (P0731)

POSSIBLE CAUSES
UD AND L-R PRESSURES < 95 PSI AT 2000 RPM
CUST COMP DELAYED 1ST OR REV ENGAGE/COAST DOWN STOP BUMP
UD AND L-R CLUTCH VOLUME INDEXES OUT OF SPEC
UD PRESSURE < 5 PSI IN 4TH GEAR
TRANSAXLE REPAIR (L-R SEALS)
L-R ACCUM SEALS DAMAGED
L-R SWITCH VALVE STUCK IN REV
UD ACCUMULATOR SEALS DAMAGED
TRANSAXLE DEFECT(UD SEALS)
TRANSAXLE SEALS ARE DEFECTIVE
UD PRESSURE > 5 PSI IN 4TH GEAR
L-R SWITCH VALVE STUCK IN FIRST GEAR POSITION

 

[Dancehealer]

Ah! Thanks for all of the details on the codes. Okay, I will have to re-check them and see what come up.

 

[Dancehealer]

A Transmission rebuilder on another forum has mentioned to me that there might a pin missing between the manual valve/shaft and the rooster comb. I do get the shaft to click on each gear of the rooster comb, so, I'm not sure if it would still do that if the pin was missing. If the rooster comb can move, but it's not really moving something in the valve body below it, then I guess that could be another reason why my car is not going into gear. The transmission range sensor that I replaced apparently covers the place on the manual valve that has the pin in it, so, I wouldn't have seen it when I last examined the valve body.

More to investigate!

 

[Bob Lincoln]

On most automatics, certainly on my A500, there is an E-clip that connects the external linkage to the valve body inside. You have to pop that E-clip off to remove the valve body, and it's a bear to put it back on - took me over 2 hours once. Without it, the linkage is disconnected from the valve body as you described. It also means it remains in the position that you left it in, be it Park, or Neutral, etc.

This is what the clip looks like:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/drm/633-050.2/image/2/&imgrefurl=http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Tools-Garage-and-Equipment/E-Clip/_/N-25q6&h=200&w=200&sz=7&tbnid=i_2qCb3g6wN2FM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=90&prev=/search%3Fq%3De-clip%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=e-clip&usg=__w_LhVh8rfaPSuILuu9zJm86MQ8E=&docid=ltrOk2RL3fvg-M&sa=X&ei=ht_JUJyLNarj0gHmzIGADQ&ved=0CEYQ9QEwAQ&dur=745