After the K-Cars

6668 Views 81 Replies 24 Participants Last post by Doug D, 2 mo ago

hmk123

Discussion Starter · 3 mo ago

From reading allpar over the years I learned (if I understood correctly) that the Chrysler of the nineties was heavily influenced by AMC. Not just by vehicles like the LH cars and the Grand Cherokee but also engineering and production methodologies. I always wondered what Chrysler’s pipeline looked like for future models before they absorbed AMC. What would Chrysler have looked like in the nineties without AMC?

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valiant67

· #21 · 3 mo ago

AceHanlon said:
Including trucks? I can't even imagine that being something that would be a strong seller. I don't mind the K cars and it's variants but Lee went a little nuts with some ideas for it.

Keep in mind, Chrysler Corporation had just done the FWD L car based Rampage/Scamp. They were mildly successful, as the car-based pickup market had shrunk and Rampage sold at about 50% of El Camino volume.
Beefing up Rampage to the K car platform and using the minivan rear suspension design would probably have made it a bit tougher.
And separately Jeep was taking a unibody SUV and making a pickup from it, though RWD based.
Chrysler also flirted with a PT pickup, it would have been interesting to see how it sold.

I had a little Rampage. I was amazed at what it could haul, though a full load of mulch meant a slow climb up the hill on the way home.

Erik Latranyi

· #22 · 3 mo ago

valiant67 said:
It is simply amazing that the “bones” from that sorry Premier (beautiful car, mechanically no way ready for prime time) worked so well for the LH. That’s the kind of Chrysler engineering I was proud of (as a purchaser, not as an employee).

That generation of engineers created the true Chrysler golden age with advanced turbo-charged engines (that are the basis for small turbos today), the K-cars, then into the minivans, Neon, LH PT Cruiser and LX. They did the Ram, Grand Cherokee and TJ Wrangler as well. Use of aluminum for Prowler and the Viper on the cheap.

I am sure I forgot many of the achievements.

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aldo90731

· #23 · 3 mo ago

The LH cars marked a renaissance at Chrysler after years of K-Car derivatives. The first Grand Cherokee appeared around the same time, followed by the revolutionary 1994 Dodge Ram, Dodge/Plymouth Neon twins, 1996 Chrysler Sebring convertible, followed by the beautiful 1999 Grand Cherokee, PT Cruiser, etc.

Bob Lutz was on fire, and Chrysler was firing on all cylinders.

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AceHanlon

· #24 · 3 mo ago

valiant67 said:
Keep in mind, Chrysler Corporation had just done the FWD L car based Rampage/Scamp. They were mildly successful, as the car-based pickup market had shrunk and Rampage sold at about 50% of El Camino volume.
Beefing up Rampage to the K car platform and using the minivan rear suspension design would probably have made it a bit tougher.
And separately Jeep was taking a unibody SUV and making a pickup from it, though RWD based.
Chrysler also flirted with a PT pickup, it would have been interesting to see how it sold.

I had a little Rampage. I was amazed at what it could haul, though a full load of mulch meant a slow climb up the hill on the way home.

I thought vehicles like the Rampage were pretty much a dying breed by the time of the 90's?

DC-93

· #25 · 3 mo ago

valiant67 said:
It is simply amazing that the “bones” from that sorry Premier (beautiful car, mechanically no way ready for prime time) worked so well for the LH. That’s the kind of Chrysler engineering I was proud of (as a purchaser, not as an employee).

More like "bone" !!
The front cradle idea was used and the idea of the rear suspension, both reworked by Chrysler for the LH.
Chrysler had an offsite group of folks working on the LH Platform.

There was a lot of road noise transferred into the body by that rear suspension design. Only so many band aids available!

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DC-93

· #26 · 3 mo ago

Erik Latranyi said:
That generation of engineers created the true Chrysler golden age with advanced turbo-charged engines (that are the basis for small turbos today), the K-cars, then into the minivans, Neon, LH PT Cruiser and LX. They did the Ram, Grand Cherokee and TJ Wrangler as well. Use of aluminum for Prowler and the Viper on the cheap.

I am sure I forgot many of the achievements.

In the 1997-98 timeframe we were making 10K on every minivan. We were selling 20,000 a month.

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Adventurer55

· #27 · 3 mo ago

AceHanlon said:
Including trucks? I can't even imagine that being something that would be a strong seller. I don't mind the K cars and it's variants but Lee went a little nuts with some ideas for it.

They were interested in the idea of a truck based off a minivan. And they already had the Rampage. It just wasn't quite big enough.

AceHanlon

· #28 · 3 mo ago

Adventurer55 said:
They were interested in the idea of a truck based off a minivan. And they already had the Rampage. It just wasn't quite big enough.

Yeah that's the feeling I always gotten from that vehicle.

valiant67

· #29 · 3 mo ago

AceHanlon said:
I thought vehicles like the Rampage were pretty much a dying breed by the time of the 90's?

Rampage was short lived (82-84 only) but compact pickups were hot. Ranger and S-10, along with Japanese competitors were doing very well. Dodge relied on a captive Mitsubishi truck and Rampage. Finally they got Dakota which did quite well, but a minivan based gen 2 Rampage might have gotten some decent sales, with a little lower investment than some other options. In effect, a small-medium-large truck lineup.

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valiant67

· #30 · 3 mo ago

Adventurer55 said:
They were interested in the idea of a truck based off a minivan. And they already had the Rampage. It just wasn't quite big enough.

It seemed not quite big enough but Rampage was pretty capable in reality. Rampage payload was 1145 lbs. Base 1983 Ranger was only 1200 lbs. 1983 El Camino was only 800 lbs.
Like typical old Chrysler, Rampage was very good for what it was,

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hmk123

Discussion Starter · #31 · 3 mo ago (Edited)

DC-93 said:
More like "bone" !!
The front cradle idea was used and the idea of the rear suspension, both reworked by Chrysler for the LH.
Chrysler had an offsite group of folks working on the LH Platform.

There was a lot of road noise transferred into the body by that rear suspension design. Only so many band aids available!

Interesting. I think I got my impression from the Wikipedia article about Francois Castaing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Castaing

Curious what your thoughts are. It makes it sound like AMC was on a good track and a lot of what he envisioned was implemtend by Chrysler in the nineties...

And maybe I am wrong but I thought Allpar told a similar story.

AHBGuru

· #32 · 3 mo ago

valiant67 said:
There was no need for a Plymouth M body in the beginning as M was an upscale F. Let the lower Dodge and Plymouth lines have the F and the upper line Chrysler (and Dodge because it spanned both) have the M. Same with the premium B body (Cordoba, Magnum, Charger) for the higher brands and the basic Monaco and Fury (their last names after lots of name swaps ) for the lower trim lines. Same for the J body, a premium vehicle that has no place in a Plymouth line.

In today's retrospect, perhaps. But at the time? Not even close. Plymouth always had upscale versions of almost every model (most used the "Brougham" label through the 70's).

Those missing models, combined with the corporate decision to "shrink" Plymouth, ultimately led to the demise of the brand. It's just that it took 25 years for that to happen.

It would also be fair to say that a limited range of new lower-priced Plymouth models would probably out-sell both Chrysler and Dodge.

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AHBGuru

· #33 · 3 mo ago

DC-93 said:
More like "bone" !!
The front cradle idea was used and the idea of the rear suspension, both reworked by Chrysler for the LH.
Chrysler had an offsite group of folks working on the LH Platform.

There was a lot of road noise transferred into the body by that rear suspension design. Only so many band aids available!

Was this the transverse torsion bar system designed by Chrysler's Bob Batchelor, who also did the M-body? There's an article about that somewhere on Allpar, too.

Dave Z

· #34 · 3 mo ago

Keeping the most expensive cars from Plymouth did make sense, but only if the cheaper cars were kept from Dodge and Chrysler.
There was indeed a plan to make K-based big cars, these were kicked out by the LH.
Iacocca had planned to phase out trucks, which is why there were no major new D-series pickups the Dakota was done by an outside company. Truck sales at Chrysler were flagging. But when they bought AMC, that plan went out the window.

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valiant67

· #35 · 3 mo ago

AHBGuru said:
In today's retrospect, perhaps. But at the time? Not even close. Plymouth always had upscale versions of almost every model (most used the "Brougham" label through the 70's).

Those missing models, combined with the corporate decision to "shrink" Plymouth, ultimately led to the demise of the brand. It's just that it took 25 years for that to happen.

It would also be fair to say that a limited range of new lower-priced Plymouth models would probably out-sell both Chrysler and Dodge.

That’s the problem. Lack of brand discipline killed Plymouth and weakened Chrysler.
There were still two dealer divisions within Chrysler Corp; Dodge and Chrysler/Plymouth.
In the Chrysler/Plymouth showroom you had low line Plymouth and high line Chrysler. Cars like the Chrysler Newport and top of the line Gran Fury violated brand definition.
On the Dodge side, Dodge needed to stretch from almost as base as Plymouth to almost as premium as Chrysler. Hence Dodge necessarily got a wider variation in models.
But brand discipline wasn’t kept, which led to the mandate to combine Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth showrooms and highlighted just how weak Plymouth was in that new setup.

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Bob Lincoln

· #36 · 3 mo ago

My grandfather always bought Chrysler products, and he had a 58 Fury, I believe, and a large 61 Plymouth of some model. In 1966 he went 'upscale' to that brand violation, the Chrysler Newport, probably for the Chrysler name. He bought the lowest model in the most prestigious name for the grandeur. He optioned it out with the 383-2bbl and also had a rear defroster blower, wheel skirts, chrome trim, and a very unusual feature, rear seat heat. The car had chrome paddle switches on the (black glossy metal) dash. He avoided A/C and the analog clock, saying they would just break down.

And I remember being at a Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge dealer in the 1980s when a potential buyer insisted on getting a Chrysler New Yorker, which went for $20K to start. The dealer didn't have one at the moment, and tried to show a Dodge Diplomat that was loaded, for $14K. No, the buyer insisted, I want a Chrysler. The dealer outright told him that the cars were identical except for badge and a $6k premium, and the buyer still insisted that he wanted a Chrysler, not a Dodge, and he walked.

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AHBGuru

· #37 · 3 mo ago

valiant67 said:
That’s the problem. Lack of brand discipline killed Plymouth and weakened Chrysler.
There were still two dealer divisions within Chrysler Corp; Dodge and Chrysler/Plymouth.
In the Chrysler/Plymouth showroom you had low line Plymouth and high line Chrysler. Cars like the Chrysler Newport and top of the line Gran Fury violated brand definition.
On the Dodge side, Dodge needed to stretch from almost as base as Plymouth to almost as premium as Chrysler. Hence Dodge necessarily got a wider variation in models.
But brand discipline wasn’t kept, which led to the mandate to combine Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth showrooms and highlighted just how weak Plymouth was in that new setup.

The only reason Plymouth was weak is because of the exact reason I noted - Chrysler brass allowed it to happen.

You're forgetting brand loyalty was still a thing back then, even though the cars were largely badge-engineered by that time.

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valiant67

· #38 · 3 mo ago

Chrysler brass allowed it to happen by failing to keep brand definitions and protect them. Same problem they have today. Dodge was supposed to be performance but they had no problem with a Jeep SRT model. Chrysler was supposed to be premium or mainstream depending on the timeframe for FCA. Yet they let Jeep have the premium and mainstream (volume) markets.

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Erik Latranyi

· #39 · 3 mo ago

valiant67 said:
Chrysler brass allowed it to happen by failing to keep brand definitions and protect them. Same problem they have today. Dodge was supposed to be performance but they had no problem with a Jeep SRT model. Chrysler was supposed to be premium or mainstream depending on the timeframe for FCA. Yet they let Jeep have the premium and mainstream (volume) markets.

Jeep fell into performance with the 5.9 v8 Tsi trim on Grand Cherokee.

Once weak management saw the demand, they pounced on it without thinking through proper brand management.

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codypet

· #40 · 3 mo ago

valiant67 said:
That’s the problem. Lack of brand discipline killed Plymouth and weakened Chrysler.
There were still two dealer divisions within Chrysler Corp; Dodge and Chrysler/Plymouth.
In the Chrysler/Plymouth showroom you had low line Plymouth and high line Chrysler. Cars like the Chrysler Newport and top of the line Gran Fury violated brand definition.
On the Dodge side, Dodge needed to stretch from almost as base as Plymouth to almost as premium as Chrysler. Hence Dodge necessarily got a wider variation in models.
But brand discipline wasn’t kept, which led to the mandate to combine Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth showrooms and highlighted just how weak Plymouth was in that new setup.

And if I remember correctly fleet sales were all Dodge right? Shouldn't have that been Plymouth technically? Shouldn't the mini Ram Van (later Ram C/V) been a Plymouth if the down market vehicles were supposed to be Plymouths? I know that was all considered Dodge Truck division, but it highlights what a mess it really was.

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