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Not beyond the realms of probability in either case - one slip up from the Germans is all it takes.
The Germans have had hundreds of slip ups, as long as they quietly take care of them under warranty they still sell. The only exception to the rule was when the media went after Audi with unintended acceleration. Of course VW got caught lying about their Diesel engines as well, but that wasn't a luxury brand.
 

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DS exists. I would figure that DS will get a version of the Giulia and Stelvio (if that makes sense); the DS cars will be sold as Lancias in Italy, virtually unchanged; and retuned to become Alfa Romeos and possibly Chryslers. That is my guess.

Peugeot has NO problem with the old "retune, restyle, resell" system. (Nor does VW, for that matter, with Skoda, Seat, VW, and Audi).
A RWD DS makes zero sense. The DS 9 is already on a longer wheelbase than Giulia/Stelvio. Peugeot and Opel can get the RWD sedan as 608 and Senator.

DS doesn't need a suspension tune for Chrysler, they have the same mission. Do one sport Dodge/Alfa tune for EMP1/CMP and EMP2 as well.
 

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And where exactly does DS fit in? As far as I can see it's yet another pretend posh brand with no place to go. It's also a real insult to use DS for a brand when one recalls the superb, indeed legendary Citroen DS/ID.
The world remembers DS as the expensive, advanced, high maintenance large car with the hopelessly small engine due to the French tax system. CX, ZX, SM, XM, Xsara and Xantia had more appeal in North America, although some were not sold here.

Yes sticking DS on a DS3 Crossback or 3 cylinder DS4 or DS7 is insulting, but the DS 9 is a fitting tribute.
 

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A RWD DS makes zero sense. The DS 9 is already on a longer wheelbase than Giulia/Stelvio. Peugeot and Opel can get the RWD sedan as 608 and Senator.

DS doesn't need a suspension tune for Chrysler, they have the same mission. Do one sport Dodge/Alfa tune for EMP1/CMP and EMP2 as well.
Restyled to become a Chrysler, then. I think Alfa and Dodge would require different tunes.
 

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The world remembers DS as the expensive, advanced, high maintenance large car with the hopelessly small engine due to the French tax system. CX, ZX, SM, XM, Xsara and Xantia had more appeal in North America, although some were not sold here.

Yes sticking DS on a DS3 Crossback or 3 cylinder DS4 or DS7 is insulting, but the DS 9 is a fitting tribute.
The DS was not that expensive to maintain if anyone had a little mechanical aptitude. It was a large and complex car to some but it was pretty simply engineered and needed some intelligence to tackle properly. My second hand examples were run pretty much on a shoestring for more than a decade with very, very few issues. It was extremely durable mechanically, if somewhat rust prone like others of its era. The engines did a good enough job of motivating the thing despite being no more than adequately powerful even in the final 21/23 Efi versions. It was way better car than the CX that replaced it, as I know to my cost and frustration - that was actually expensive to run and troublesome. Everything post CX is essentially a rebadged, tweaked Peugeot (often cheaper too).
 

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DS exists. I would figure that DS will get a version of the Giulia and Stelvio (if that makes sense); the DS cars will be sold as Lancias in Italy, virtually unchanged; and retuned to become Alfa Romeos and possibly Chryslers. That is my guess.

Peugeot has NO problem with the old "retune, restyle, resell" system. (Nor does VW, for that matter, with Skoda, Seat, VW, and Audi).
It's very unlikely that DS will get any rear wheel drive platforms - Citroen has been exclusively front wheel drive since the mid 1930's. It's possible that an all wheel drive Giorgio platform will underpin some large future model(s) although I expect that they will either go eAWD or stay front driven.
 

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Restyled to become a Chrysler, then. I think Alfa and Dodge would require different tunes.
DS won't be in North America, Chrysler won't be in Europe, so a Chrysler 300 does nothing to fill that spot in France and Germany. A Peugeot 608/Opel Senator fills it there quite well.

Yes the DS 9 can be restyled to be a Chrysler Concorde.

What makes you think Dodge and Alfa need different tunes? Dodge is well known for good handling cars.
 

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The DS was not that expensive to maintain if anyone had a little mechanical aptitude. It was a large and complex car to some but it was pretty simply engineered and needed some intelligence to tackle properly. My second hand examples were run pretty much on a shoestring for more than a decade with very, very few issues. It was extremely durable mechanically, if somewhat rust prone like others of its era. The engines did a good enough job of motivating the thing despite being no more than adequately powerful even in the final 21/23 Efi versions. It was way better car than the CX that replaced it, as I know to my cost and frustration - that was actually expensive to run and troublesome. Everything post CX is essentially a rebadged, tweaked Peugeot (often cheaper too).
All those parts you used to keep them running on a shoestring budget were not available in most of the world on a shoestring budget due to extremely low sales and Citroen withdrawal from markets worldwide.

Rebadged tweaked Peugeots is exactly what 12 out of 14 brands will be getting in the near future.
 

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All those parts you used to keep them running on a shoestring budget were not available in most of the world on a shoestring budget due to extremely low sales and Citroen withdrawal from markets worldwide.

Rebadged tweaked Peugeots is exactly what 12 out of 14 brands will be getting in the near future.
What parts? The DS rarely if ever broke down!
Tweaked Peugeots will be the end for me. Bloody awful things - I take it you have no experience of them being in the US. Overrated trash is my opinion.
 

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DS won't be in North America, Chrysler won't be in Europe, so a Chrysler 300 does nothing to fill that spot in France and Germany. A Peugeot 608/Opel Senator fills it there quite well.
Or some Lancia, or some Alfa Romeo.
 

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I think Alfa and Dodge would require different tunes.
What makes you think Dodge and Alfa need different tunes? Dodge is well known for good handling cars.
You protest too much. Good handling, sure. "Alfa Romeo" level handling? Nope! AR has too much history with top level performance, especially in the handling arena. Dave Z is right. Dodge and Alfa performance-level machines have been and are on two different levels where handling is concerned. Dodge never made anything like a 33 Stradale, which only weighs about 1500 lbs (700 kg).
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Alfa Romeo's successful transition to production line cars was done on the back of the 1960s RWD Giulietta and Giulia. The classic GTA is a RWD coupe. Giulia - in all variants - has always been a RWD car. Is it a bigger car now? Sure. So are BMW 3ers - they both weigh about the same at their origin and now.
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Even the original early 70s Alfetta (Tipo 116) - literally "little Alfa" - was a RWD car - actually has a rear transaxle.

Bottom line is, you can't compare a brand with F1 history and a brand that is mostly known for either drag racing or NASCAR.
 
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Yep, little hope of Chrysler going after Mercedes, less hope for Alfa going after BMW successfully.
Seems you forgot that David slew Goliath.
A frontal assault on Mercedes/BMW by Alfa is a suicide mission.
Alfa isn't making a direct frontal assault on either. They're attacking - very apropos to the subject - an assailable flank - driving dynamics (especially in the case of MBs, which have become the German muscle car), and using infiltration to get through BMW's defences - See Bimmerfest 19.
 

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Or some Lancia, or some Alfa Romeo.
They have to have 3 since the European market is ultra nationalist. Over 25% of the cars sold in Italy are Italian, over 50% of the cars sold in Germany are from German brands and over 55% of the cars sold in France are French.

Could you imagine if GM were based in Michigan, Ford were based in Ohio and Chrysler were based in Indiana and over half of the cars sold in Michigan were GM and half of the cars sold in Ohio were Ford, and a quarter of the cars sold in Indiana were from Chrysler, just because that is where they were based.


So Alfa, Peugeot and Opel all need their Giulia triplet. Lancia doesn't need one, and DS shouldn't get one. Lancia needs a DS 9 twin instead.
 

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You protest too much. Good handling, sure. "Alfa Romeo" level handling? Nope! AR has too much history with top level performance, especially in the handling arena. Dave Z is right. Dodge and Alfa performance-level machines have been and are on two different levels where handling is concerned. Dodge never made anything like a 33 Stradale, which only weighs about 1500 lbs (700 kg).
View attachment 80219

Alfa Romeo's successful transition to production line cars was done on the back of the 1960s RWD Giulietta and Giulia. The classic GTA is a RWD coupe. Giulia - in all variants - has always been a RWD car. Is it a bigger car now? Sure. So are BMW 3ers - they both weigh about the same at their origin and now. View attachment 80218

Even the original early 70s Alfetta (Tipo 116) - literally "little Alfa" - was a RWD car - actually has a rear transaxle.

Bottom line is, you can't compare a brand with F1 history and a brand that is mostly known for either drag racing or NASCAR.
LOL! 33 Stradale! 18 cars built! They are completely irrelevant to normal Alfas, like a Chrysler turbine car is irrelevant to normal Chrysler or Dodge cars.
2.0 engine, 230 HP and 0-60 in under 6 seconds. Sounds like a Neon SRT4.

RWD Giulietta 52- 99 HP 4 cylinder with a live rear axle. Giulia 77-101 HP. Sounds like a Dodge Colt.
Giulietta Turbodelta 168 HP, Alfetta regular production 108-158 HP, sounds like a Dodge Conquest.

GTA. 500 cars for homologation. Raced in TransAm, just like the Challenger/Barracuda.

F1 open wheel cars from the early 50s with no relationship to road cars. No one in the US outside a handful of Alfa fans cares.

I just compared them. Dodge comes out the winner for Americans.


 

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Seems you forgot that David slew Goliath.

Alfa isn't making a direct frontal assault on either. They're attacking - very apropos to the subject - an assailable flank - driving dynamics (especially in the case of MBs, which have become the German muscle car), and using infiltration to get through BMW's defences - See Bimmerfest 19.
I've seen their sales numbers, they aren't even scratching the surface, let alone infiltrating.
 

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Great handling Dodge?

Do you all forget the Viper set the track record at Nurburgring Nordschleife track in Germany?

The lowly Dodge has a faster lap time than any Alfa.
 
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Great handling Dodge?

Do you all forget the Viper set the track record at Nurburgring Nordschleife track in Germany?

The lowly Dodge has a faster lap time than any Alfa.
Mmmm...the Viper was 1. exceptional in the Dodge galaxy as a halo car, even when you count things like Neon SRT, and the hot FWDs that preceded it, 2. relied on a HUGE NA V10, and 3. is in a totally different vehicle segment from any Alfa ever built. It was designed to go up against ONE vehicle: Vette.

LOL! 33 Stradale! 18 cars built! They are completely irrelevant to normal Alfas, like a Chrysler turbine car is irrelevant to normal Chrysler or Dodge cars.
2.0 engine, 230 HP and 0-60 in under 6 seconds. Sounds like a Neon SRT4.

RWD Giulietta 52- 99 HP 4 cylinder with a live rear axle. Giulia 77-101 HP. Sounds like a Dodge Colt.
Giulietta Turbodelta 168 HP, Alfetta regular production 108-158 HP, sounds like a Dodge Conquest.

GTA. 500 cars for homologation. Raced in TransAm, just like the Challenger/Barracuda.

F1 open wheel cars from the early 50s with no relationship to road cars. No one in the US outside a handful of Alfa fans cares.

I just compared them. Dodge comes out the winner for Americans.


Right up front you display more proof you don't understand Alfa. Then you double down comparing 1960s RWD Alfas to much newer Dodges. Dodge and Alfa don't compete in the same market segments the way you think they do/should. Two very different customer bases.
 

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Mmmm...the Viper was 1. exceptional in the Dodge galaxy as a halo car, even when you count things like Neon SRT, and the hot FWDs that preceded it, 2. relied on a HUGE NA V10, and 3. is in a totally different vehicle segment from any Alfa ever built. It was designed to go up against ONE vehicle: Vette.
You could not be more wrong.

What was the Alfa 8C but a halo car? Did it beat the Viper record at Nurburgring? Nope

Even the last hot Alfa, the Giulia Q4 could not beat the Viper's time at Nurburgring. That has less to do with horsepower and more to do with great handling.

The Neon SRT4 handled better than most hot Alfas of the last decade.

The point is that Dodge had great handling cars with power. Alfa had good handling cars, some with power.

Dodge can be working man's performance while Alfa can be executive level performance.
 
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Mmmm...the Viper was 1. exceptional in the Dodge galaxy as a halo car, even when you count things like Neon SRT, and the hot FWDs that preceded it, 2. relied on a HUGE NA V10, and 3. is in a totally different vehicle segment from any Alfa ever built. It was designed to go up against ONE vehicle: Vette.


Right up front you display more proof you don't understand Alfa. Then you double down comparing 1960s RWD Alfas to much newer Dodges. Dodge and Alfa don't compete in the same market segments the way you think they do/should. Two very different customer bases.
Seriously Tony, I listed the cars you chose in your post #71. If you wanted to add the other Alfas of the past 50 years they would be clones of 70s/80s FWD Subarus and 80s/90s FWD Dodge/Chryslers. Excepting the present pitifully slow selling Giorgio models of course.

Did you want me to add that a $3000-$4000 Super Bee ($23K-$30K) could outrun a $17,000 33 Stradale ($129K)? It was the Viper ACR of its day, except it didn't have the power to beat a Corvette. So really it was just an Italian 911 with the back seat removed. And there were only 18 made as opposed to over 2000 Vipers, so we already talked about it way more than any impact on Alfa its almost non existence deserves.
 

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You could not be more wrong.

What was the Alfa 8C but a halo car? Did it beat the Viper record at Nurburgring? Nope

Even the last hot Alfa, the Giulia Q4 could not beat the Viper's time at Nurburgring. That has less to do with horsepower and more to do with great handling.

The Neon SRT4 handled better than most hot Alfas of the last decade.

The point is that Dodge had great handling cars with power. Alfa had good handling cars, some with power.

Dodge can be working man's performance while Alfa can be executive level performance.
It was about wings and spoilers. Viper ACR was just an extension of the Charger Daytona idea. Make a car completely impractical for road use with aero attachments that allow it to completely dominate a specific type of race.
 
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