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18 homologation specials over 50 years ago, what is laughable is you think they matter.
Only thing laughable is you think they don't. They matter because that's part of the character of Alfa, the "Alfa DNA." AR was a bespoke luxury carmaker until after WW2, when it became a sporty coupe and sedan manufacturer, and got pretty heavily into European auto racing scene, to the point that one of its most famous spun off and became perennially successful - Enzo Ferrari.
 

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Only thing laughable is you think they don't. They matter because that's part of the character of Alfa, the "Alfa DNA." AR was a bespoke luxury carmaker until after WW2, when it became a sporty coupe and sedan manufacturer, and got pretty heavily into European auto racing scene, to the point that one of its most famous spun off and became perennially successful - Enzo Ferrari.
Alfa for the last 50 years has been a mainstream car brand. The older history is irrelevant.
 

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Alfa for the last 50 years has been a mainstream car brand. The older history is irrelevant.
You're welcome to your opinion, and that's all your second statement is, is opinion.
 

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The question needs to be asked, just how many standard production parts did the really successful NASCAR and drag racing Dodges actually contain? Probably very few in reality. Homologation specials I believe.
 

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The question needs to be asked, just how many standard production parts did the really successful NASCAR and drag racing Dodges actually contain? Probably very few in reality. Homologation specials I believe.
It all depends on the year you reference. It used to be quite a high percentage of production parts, including during much of Mopar's muscle car "glory years"..
 

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It all depends on the year you reference. It used to be quite a high percentage of production parts, including during much of Mopar's muscle car "glory years"..
The sharing of parts pretty much coincides with the street Hemi, '66-'71. Of course the stock cars of the '50s were pretty much stock, unlike the funny cars of the early '60s. From '72 on, not much relationship.
 

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The sharing of parts pretty much coincides with the street Hemi, '66-'71. Of course the stock cars of the '50s were pretty much stock, unlike the funny cars of the early '60s. From '72 on, not much relationship.
As the funny car classes came about and dominated, Pro Stock and other classes soon became where drag racing cars more resembled street cars - though the motors may not have as much.
 

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That is what an average Alfa Fiat/Abarth is. Nothing more than an Italian Dodge.
There, fixed it for you. Not really accurate, either, but more accurate than calling AR "Italian Dodge."
 
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Fiat's probably closer to Plymouth if we need American brand comparisons at all. Abarth/Dodge....ummm.
You have to consider the market differences, and what's currently available to compare. Plymouth doesn't exist in this argument, because there are no new Plymouths. AR is more like Chrysler market-vs-market, than AR is like Dodge, market-vs-market, which isn't to say that they're really that similar. That's why saying AR is "Italian Dodge" is problematic. When you look at what AR has done in history up through today, Chrysler is a better fit for comparison, but only because between the two, Dodge is even less comparable, unless you just look at very basic metrics on performance. ARs don't just sell on 0-60s and Gs - anymore than Dodge does - as they have their own nature. If you try to reduce Alfa/Dodge down to performance numbers, you're missing a huge percentage of what makes Alfa "Alfa," and what makes Dodge "Dodge." Also, you can't just do as David S has done, comparing the brands in generic market segments, as an Alfa Giulia isn't just a midsize car, for example, or pick your Challenger variant. That's why, for all the grief the EMEA market segments get, they mean something for marketing that a mere "midsize" indicator can't capture.

Take a look at the history of brands mismanagement, a problem for virtually all of the old FCA, Alfa was hamstrung by FCA mismanagement, which, I would bet is a carryover from 50 years of failed Fiat management that, like the off-and-on Chrysler mismanagement, and whatever latent issues in PSA - got us all here in one big pile - as the Germans would probably say, and @pumadog can correct if I misspoke, an Autohaufen - called Stellantis. AR doesn't compete versus Chrysler or Dodge, regardless of market segment, and there's no reason they should. AR has always had a strong international following amongst "car people" regardless of the sales figures. Fixing Alfa takes advantage of that strong, albeit latent following. Or you can just do as David S has done and reduce it all down to tidy figures and industrialization data that's only part of the story, and a sad and myopic way to look at the world, if that's all you look at, because you're likely to miss some important factors, things - especially qualitative things - like the value of good will (which I specifically don't think David S discounts - I just used that as an example of an intangible factor).
 
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You have to consider the market differences, and what's currently available to compare. Plymouth doesn't exist in this argument, because there are no new Plymouths. AR is more like Chrysler market-vs-market, than AR is like Dodge, market-vs-market, which isn't to say that they're really that similar. That's why saying AR is "Italian Dodge" is problematic. When you look at what AR has done in history up through today, Chrysler is a better fit for comparison, but only because between the two, Dodge is even less comparable, unless you just look at very basic metrics on performance. ARs don't just sell on 0-60s and Gs - anymore than Dodge does - as they have their own nature. If you try to reduce Alfa/Dodge down to performance numbers, you're missing a huge percentage of what makes Alfa "Alfa," and what makes Dodge "Dodge." Also, you can't just do as David S has done, comparing the brands in generic market segments, as an Alfa Giulia isn't just a midsize car, for example, or pick your Challenger variant. That's why, for all the grief the EMEA market segments get, they mean something for marketing that a mere "midsize" indicator can't capture.

Take a look at the history of brands mismanagement, a problem for virtually all of the old FCA, Alfa was hamstrung by FCA mismanagement, which, I would bet is a carryover from 50 years of failed Fiat management that, like the off-and-on Chrysler mismanagement, and whatever latent issues in PSA - got us all here in one big pile - as the Germans would probably say, and @pumadog can correct if I misspoke, an Autohaufen - called Stellantis. AR doesn't compete versus Chrysler or Dodge, regardless of market segment, and there's no reason they should. AR has always had a strong international following amongst "car people" regardless of the sales figures. Fixing Alfa takes advantage of that strong, albeit latent following. Or you can just do as David S has done and reduce it all down to tidy figures and industrialization data that's only part of the story, and a sad and myopic way to look at the world, if that's all you look at, because you're likely to miss some important factors, things - especially qualitative things - like the value of good will (which I specifically don't think David S discounts - I just used that as an example of an intangible factor).
I agree with the points raised regarding mismanagement and that Alfa has been hopelessly mishandled for decades. Ditto Fiat. Back in the 60's to the early 70's Fiat had a strong range of competitive cars in every market sector. What do they have nowadays in EMEA regions? Two city cars derived from the same ageing platform (500 & Panda), one irrelevant mini van (500L) and a slow selling crossover (500X) and a slow selling small/medium family hatchback and wagon (Tipo). Several generations of Fiat management have had delusions of premium, usually failed, instead of concentrating on what Fiat has always done well i.e practical, durable, good value, classless everyman transport with a bit of flair and character. Anything can be reduced to statistics and comparison points like David S seems to do and this is why Fiat, subsequently FCA are in the mess they are in - too many surveys, clinics and comparisons and not enough original thought. Admittedly, cash flow (or lack of it) has been a contributory factor too.
 

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I agree with the points raised regarding mismanagement and that Alfa has been hopelessly mishandled for decades. Ditto Fiat. Back in the 60's to the early 70's Fiat had a strong range of competitive cars in every market sector. What do they have nowadays in EMEA regions? Two city cars derived from the same ageing platform (500 & Panda), one irrelevant mini van (500L) and a slow selling crossover (500X) and a slow selling small/medium family hatchback and wagon (Tipo). Several generations of Fiat management have had delusions of premium, usually failed, instead of concentrating on what Fiat has always done well i.e practical, durable, good value, classless everyman transport with a bit of flair and character. Anything can be reduced to statistics and comparison points like David S seems to do and this is why Fiat, subsequently FCA are in the mess they are in - too many surveys, clinics and comparisons and not enough original thought. Admittedly, cash flow (or lack of it) has been a contributory factor too.
The American brands have been mismanaged as well.

That is why it is so exciting that Tavares made brand identity and management the top priority. Either he saw this problem with the brands (which makes him far, far smarter than anyone gives him credit) or he is getting lucky in his first decisions.

I think Tavares is smart. He knows the platform sharing easily results in "me-too"
vehicles that are all the same. Proper branding will allow extensive sharing and extensive differentiation at the same time.

Either way, a proper brand image established for each is the right starting point. We may not agree with the brand identities they choose, but if they are clear and properly supported, then it is better than the bovine excrement brand management from SM.
 

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The American brands have been mismanaged as well.

That is why it is so exciting that Tavares made brand identity and management the top priority. Either he saw this problem with the brands (which makes him far, far smarter than anyone gives him credit) or he is getting lucky in his first decisions.

I think Tavares is smart. He knows the platform sharing easily results in "me-too"
vehicles that are all the same. Proper branding will allow extensive sharing and extensive differentiation at the same time.

Either way, a proper brand image established for each is the right starting point. We may not agree with the brand identities they choose, but if they are clear and properly supported, then it is better than the bovine excrement brand management from SM.
He was smart enough to know he didn't understand it and commissioned a study of the brands. It wasn't luck, and it wasn't genius, it was good management and delegation. How well they did with the study we will see when the plans start coming out.
 

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He was smart enough to know he didn't understand it and commissioned a study of the brands. It wasn't luck, and it wasn't genius, it was good management and delegation. How well they did with the study we will see when the plans start coming out.
Yet Tavares was head of Nissan USA for a few years. So, he could have easily been arrogant and believe he understood the market.

Instead, he did the right thing.

What a refreshing change from Sergio, who thought he was the smartest person on either continent and botched just about every product launch in North America.
 
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