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Dave said:
In the end, Gerald Ford lent a hand to New York City and prevented its bankruptcy once NYC could show a plan for moving ahead.
Doesn't this answer your own question about helping Detroit?

When a city councilwoman is sitting there on video saying President Obama owes the city of Detroit money to bail them out since it was them that got him re-elected, that's where the FBI comes into play in weeding out the bad public elected officials.

Detroit has a ton of work ahead of them, and they need a plan to make it happen. Maybe they can ask Lee Iacocca how to do it, or Rudy Guiliani. They both seem to have a bit of experience getting this kind of thing done.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Rudy Giuliani mainly hired the right guy, and then fired him - the police commissioner (can't recall the name). Unknown to most people, the MTA chief also led in cutting crime. Richard Ravitch? Oh, and not being Dinkins helped. Dinkins, as a mayor, was beneath contempt. Ineffectual, foolish, and bigoted.

In his second term, he was a disaster. Spent all his time having affairs in the mayor's mansion and fighting with the board of education over power. Corruption grew right back again in that term.

The point is, that if you want to fight corruption in a city, you need to bring in the federales, because chances are those city officials are not alone. In New Jersey the FBI found that out when everyone they indicted in New Brunswick was let off by the state prosecutor (subsequently fired, by the way, I don't think the governor knew what was going on). That's why I said the FBI was needed. -- to end the corruption. But the time to request their assistance was when Orr or Snyder first took office.

I don't really know what you're talking about with regard to President Obama and the council woman. Drawing incorrect conclusions is not a crime.

Personally, I dislike the emergency manager law because it assumes a Great Man can recover a city, and eliminates any balance of power. The Founding Fathers knew that people can be corrupted so they set different groups against each other for balance. The Emergency Manager is a dictator in their city, and many of them — not Orr, as far as I know — have been even more corrupt than the past administrations, going to "no-deliverables" contracts.

Detroit's in a real pickle, that's for sure. I wonder if there's any way to simply dissolve a city unit completely and make the region a ward of the state. There are places where there is no town or city or village or such and the state's in charge. I agree with those who said Detroit should shed itself of outlying regions... though it's a problem for the state police!

If it's legal, I suspect the only reason it was not done was because Snyder made not doing it a condition up front.
 

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Dave said:
I don't really know what you're talking about with regard to President Obama and the council woman. Drawing incorrect conclusions is not a crime.
It was on the news several different channels. This is the first one I found, there was also a video of the whole thing, my point is it was a set mentality of the corruption you mentioned.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/05/detroit-councilwoman-wants-bailout-in-exchange-for-obama-votes/

Dave, in reality this has been going on for so many decades we could take both sides of the issue as to why and we would each have a list a mile long as to why and how it happened, there are tons or reasons and lots of little incidents that make the pile to the failure.

As far as the land-grab deal goes, I would think they could basically rezone the land back to the county, which would give the Sherriff jurisdiction of the control, take all the stop lights that aren't working and put up stop signs for now, and if rent-a-cops are working there already, make them hold up their end of the contract and start with that. Yes, FBI does need to get involved, time to repair past mistakes, clear out and start over, get things under control.
 

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Dave said:
Rudy Giuliani mainly hired the right guy, and then fired him - the police commissioner (can't recall the name).
William Joseph "Bill" Bratton?
 

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Discussion Starter #25
That's the guy.

“my point is it was a set mentality of the corruption you mentioned.”

Bribes? Or “We worked to get the votes out, so you owe us”?

The latter, you know, is considered normal in politics. Just look at Tea Party reps talking about candidates they helped elect who fail to tow the line. If you get out the vote, you expect your candidate to do what you want. That's not technically corruption, it's democracy in action. What's the point of getting out the vote for a candidate who doesn't fulfill the reasons you got them into office?

Corruption is normally defined in one of two ways...

1) Common usage: taking bribes, kickbacks, etc., including repaying campaign contributors with profitable contracts or jobs
2) Technical usage: not common so why would we talk about it?
 

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Well, that's where I draw the line. If a candidate says he is going to support and defend the Constitution and make laws fair, work to build something, introduce something, fine, but to turn around and say, hey, we helped get you elected and you owe us money, no, that is not the job of the government. A person is supported because they believe in that person't beliefs. That's not democracy, that's cronyism, doing favors for "special" groups or people.

We are now getting into a political debate, your beliefs and my beliefs are slightly different, yes, and we can and have argued many times over the topics and subject, but it does not change the problems Detroit faces, let alone see if they are corrected in a legal and professional way, or whether there is something "special" done for Detroit.
Just like Gerald Ford did, have a plan that is going to fix the problem, not just throw money at it and continue the same problems abound.
 

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"I wonder if Camden will go this route? "

Camden would be a great test case. I grew up near there, and at 53, I don't remember Camden being anything but in bad shape. Yet, my parents would talk about walking through Camden to see people like Frank Sinatra perform.

It takes small steps, and things such as the baseball stadium in Camden are good ones. But it does take a while and people need to understand that. Detroit (and Camden) need the people of the city who are able to be innovative and creative step up and create new businesses with work environments that draw in and motivate the city's population. When it gets as bad as it is, a motivated workforce that is proud of where they live is tough to come by.
 

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Dave, the difference is that NY has the population and income to fund a turnaround plan. Detroit does not.

The leadership of Detroit, from Mayor to City Council, has often been corrupt. Just a couple of years ago one of the voices of reason on the board proposed turning in the city paid cars and cell phones. Other council members rejected it as 'not going far enough.' And the whole Belle Isle issue lies at the feet of City Council, so that rather than return it to the jewel it once was it languishes because of their greed, pride and ineptitude.


A decent, if brief, article on the mess.
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2013/07/19/detroits-bankruptcy-is-an-utter-defeat/

There is no easy answer for the Detroit pensioners. I wasn't aware until a week ago that they don't pay into, and are therefore ineligible for, Social Security. I have a friend who is a Detroit cop and a coworker whose husband is a firefighter for another Wayne county municipality. They're both worried.


Bankruptcy isn't what anyone wants, but really, what other option does Detroit have?
 

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Detroit mayors and council members have some of the most secure jobs......being re-elected easily until one is convicted on corruption.

That is the history of Detroit and the reason why the mayor and council never made the tough decisions in the past.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
"f a candidate says he is going to support and defend the Constitution and make laws fair, work to build something, introduce something, fine, but to turn around and say, hey, we helped get you elected and you owe us money, no, that is not the job of the government."

That is, though, pretty much the way it works, across parties.

I fully agree that it is WRONG. I disagree that it is proof of corruption, though perhaps proof of a political mindset.

Yes, NYC had size and many assets, but at the time, it seemed nonrecoverable. Newark and Camden did not have the size and Newark turned around; Camden, not sure yet.

I think the "urban farming" and similiar initiatives have a great deal of promise but they are very long term.
 

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The sad fact is if the Detroit Redwings or Lions are having lousy seasons, the city residents scream to replace the head coach and staff.

But when Detroit city government has decades of losses, corruption and decay, but the citizens keep re-electing the same politicians.
 

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Dave said:
I think the "urban farming" and similiar initiatives have a great deal of promise but they are very long term.
Absolultely. Part of the Project 21 to return the rural areas to the urban areas, all the ----ist countries do it, nobody has the incentive to improve, they just do enough to survive and that's it. As Erik said, political promises of saying one thing and doing the opposite are the reason the whole country is on the path to following Detroit.
 

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Perhaps this entire thread should be moved to 'civil but off topic', as to allow continued discussion and yet not veer into normally banned discussion topics on the main board???
 
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