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Discussion Starter #21 (Edited)
It’s all a matter of different perspective and different priorities.

The one-quarter of the market that buys Toyotas and Hondas can’t believe there are people out there still willing to buy crappy Dodges and Jeeps. They look at Challenger and Grand Cherokee and probably think “too bad they can’t build the quality to match their styling.”
 

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I like the new styling of the Accord better than any other current Honda vehicle.

It’s a shame it isn’t selling better. Hopefully Honda won’t have the same problems with their crossovers.
 

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I have a hard time believing a risk-averse person would buy a vehicle that as quirky and bizarre as some of the recent Toyotas and Hondas... If you think the Accord is ugly, there are a few Honda and Toyota CUVs that you should see.

Too bad they can't have styling that matches their other good qualities.
You assume styling is high on their priority list. I asked a repeat buyer (on her fifth Toyota, one Avalon and the remainder Camry’s) about the looks of her new Camry. Her response was she loved the color. Nothing else about the style mattered.
 

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I like the new styling of the Accord better than any other current Honda vehicle.

It’s a shame it isn’t selling better. Hopefully Honda won’t have the same problems with their crossovers.
Honda is on track to sell nearly 300,000 Accords this year plus over 350,000 CR-Vs and 350,000 Civics. FCA would kill for numbers like that.

Honda is still trying to find the right product as the HR-V and Pilot struggle in their segments.

Toyota will sell nearly 450,000 RAV4s this year while selling over 300,000 Corolla's, 350,000 Camry's and nearly 250,000 Highlanders.

Many of us may not like their styling or "feel" but plenty of others do and it shows clearly in the numbers.
 
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Honda is on track to sell nearly 300,000 Accords this year plus over 350,000 CR-Vs and 350,000 Civics. FCA would kill for numbers like that.

Honda is still trying to find the right product as the HR-V and Pilot struggle in their segments.

Toyota will sell nearly 450,000 RAV4s this year while selling over 300,000 Corolla's, 350,000 Camry's and nearly 250,000 Highlanders.

Many of us may not like their styling or "feel" but plenty of others do and it shows clearly in the numbers.
And generally Honda and Toyota do this with much smaller incentives and discounts.
 
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Discussion Starter #26
You assume styling is high on their priority list. I asked a repeat buyer (on her fifth Toyota, one Avalon and the remainder Camry’s) about the looks of her new Camry. Her response was she loved the color. Nothing else about the style mattered.
Sounds like some Wrangler buyers! LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Honda is on track to sell nearly 300,000 Accords this year plus over 350,000 CR-Vs and 350,000 Civics. FCA would kill for numbers like that.

Honda is still trying to find the right product as the HR-V and Pilot struggle in their segments.

Toyota will sell nearly 450,000 RAV4s this year while selling over 300,000 Corolla's, 350,000 Camry's and nearly 250,000 Highlanders.

Many of us may not like their styling or "feel" but plenty of others do and it shows clearly in the numbers.
Yes, Honda has struggled with Pilot. Although the current model is doing better than the previous one.
Knowing them, if they keep making slow, steady gains, Pilot will be in more solid ground by the time the next generation comes.

In the US the size of the subcompact CUV segment, where HR-V competes, is much smaller than the Compact CUV segment, where CR-V competes.

Still, HR-V has given Honda a homerun in overseas markets, where sales of these types of vehicles have taken off. Last time I checked, HR-V was handily outselling Jeep Renegade in Brazil and Mexico, Latin America’s two largest markets. As is to be expected, Honda’s owner retention rates were 2:1 compared to Jeep’s, helping Honda grow sales at a steady pace.
 
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I have a hard time believing a risk-averse person would buy a vehicle that as quirky and bizarre as some of the recent Toyotas and Hondas... If you think the Accord is ugly, there are a few Honda and Toyota CUVs that you should see.

Too bad they can't have styling that matches their other good qualities.
They’re risk averse in that they don’t want to worry about significant out of pocket repair expenses as soon as the warranty is over.
 

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Yes, Honda has struggled with Pilot. Although the current model is doing better than the previous one.
Knowing them, if they keep making slow, steady gains, Pilot will be in more solid ground by the time the next generation comes.

In the US the size of the subcompact CUV segment, where HR-V competes, is much smaller than the Compact CUV segment, where CR-V competes.

Still, HR-V has given Honda a homerun in overseas markets, where sales of these types of vehicles have taken off. Last time I checked, HR-V was handily outselling Jeep Renegade in Brazil and Mexico, Latin America’s two largest markets. As is to be expected, Honda’s owner retention rates were 2:1 compared to Jeep’s, helping Honda grow sales at a steady pace.
HR-V is handily outselling Renegade in Brazil?
Hyundai Creta, Honda HR-V & Jeep Renegade dominate Brazil's SUV market (at https://indianautosblog.com/2018/08/hyundai-creta-jeep-renegade-suv-market-312106 )
 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
That's why I said "last time I checked".

However, in Mexico is not even a contest.

In the first 7 months of this year:

Honda HR-V: 6,713
Jeep Renegade: 1,823

Honda BR-V + CR-V: 10,172
Jeep Compass + Cherokee: 1,536

Honda, with only 9 models (excluding Acura), sold 50,407 units (flat from 2017).
All of FCA, with 30 models (including Alfa Romeo), sold 42,729 units (12% below 2017)

Source: Auto News Data Center
 
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Discussion Starter #31
BTW, in Canada is pretty much the same story.

In the first 8 months of 2018:

Honda HR-V: 7,671
Jeep Renegade: 945 (down 62% from 2017 due to cannibalization by Compass)

Honda CR-V: 37,825
Jeep Compass + Cherokee: 24,095

Source: Auto News Data Center
 
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That's why I said "last time I checked".

However, in Mexico is not even a contest.

In the first 7 months of this year:

Honda HR-V: 6,713
Jeep Renegade: 1,823

Honda BR-V + CR-V: 10,172
Jeep Compass + Cherokee: 1,536

Honda, with only 9 models (excluding Acura), sold 50,407 units (flat from 2017).
All of FCA, with 30 models (including Alfa Romeo), sold 42,729 units (12% below 2017)

Source: Auto News Data Center
OK

But when you have a will to pull sales data you could add a starting price for Jeep and Honda models in Mexico.
Partial information hides a lot.

For example. In Mexico base price for Jeep Compass is higher than base price for CR-V. Even Renegade has a very close base price to CR-V.
 

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OK

But when you have a will to pull sales data you could add a starting price for Jeep and Honda models in Mexico.
Partial information hides a lot.

For example. In Mexico base price for Jeep Compass is higher than base price for CR-V. Even Renegade has a very close base price to CR-V.
Yes, the various factors that misalign them there make it meaningless to pull sales numbers in those markets.

Similar prices in Brazil, I assume?
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
OK

But when you have a will to pull sales data you could add a starting price for Jeep and Honda models in Mexico.
Partial information hides a lot.

For example. In Mexico base price for Jeep Compass is higher than base price for CR-V. Even Renegade has a very close base price to CR-V.
You are correct: partial data hides things. For instance, from that article you included, I can't tell if Jeep Renegade sales in Brazil got closer to HR-V because Honda added BR-V/WR-V. I'd have to look at how Honda and Jeep sales are doing overall, to understand what is really happening.

Yes, the various factors that misalign them there make it meaningless to pull sales numbers in those markets.

Similar prices in Brazil, I assume?
Not sure what relevance starting base price has, once you account for trim mix in sales, prevailing discounts and incentives, available inventories, etc.

In the end, consumers look for the best overall value they can get, however that value may be represented in their heads once they account for actual purchase price --net of discounts and incentives, expected resale value, brand reputation, vehicle content, attractiveness of the styling, expected reliability, efficiency, performance, customer experience, etc.

If Jeep is pricing its vehicles higher but selling fewer units, it needs to determine if that is what it needs to do to optimize returns. The underlying assumption from the outside, is that it costs all automakers roughly the same to build a competitive product in any given category.
 
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Yes, the various factors that misalign them there make it meaningless to pull sales numbers in those markets.

Similar prices in Brazil, I assume?
Lets say that Jeep in Brazil with locally made models can offer a very attractive price.

But for example in Mexico. New Cherokee has twice the price of CR-V.
It's very clear why they can't sell them.
 

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Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
According to official Honda and Jeep websites in Mexico:
  • Starting price of HR-V is MEX$310,000, or US16,315
  • Starting price of Renegade Sport is MEX$385,000, or US$20,264
  • Starting price of CR-V is MEX$415,000, or US$21,850
  • Starting price of Compass Latitude 2WD is MEX$470,000, or US$24,736
  • Jeep only brings Overland and Trailhawk to Mexico. Apparently it wants to position Cherokee as a luxury vehicle. That's their choice.
  • I couldn't find any official prices in Brazil; they are not listed --probably due to 4.75% inflation during the first 8 months of the year.
Yes, Renegade and Compass prices are higher than Honda's. Renegade starts at a whopping 20% higher; Compass starts 15% higher than CR-V. But FCA decides what trims to bring in and sets the prices. The underlying assumption being that FCA brings these vehicles to compete. But if FCA ends up not selling many units, then its pricing strategy --or something else-- is clearly not working.
 
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