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Discussion Starter #1
The 370hp is starting to feel kind of low compared to the "mid" versions of the Camaro SS and Mustang GT, both putting out over 420hp. Does anyone know if it's going to just keep the same ratings on the 5.7 cars in 2014? Even the trucks get 390hp (I assume because of dual exhaust?). With the horsepower wars seemingly on again, you would think that their most "common" version would be made to compete harder with the direct competition. It's been sitting at these numbers in the 5.7 quite some time now.
 

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Remember, as we go forward, increasing CAFE standards will make the existence of the Hemi more and more dependent on truck sales. To cater, torque and fuel economy are more important than raw horsepower.

We will probably see a split in the V8 engines down the road. One specifically for passenger cars (high hp, high fuel economy) and one for light trucks (high torque).
 

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Remember, as we go forward, increasing CAFE standards will make the existence of the Hemi more and more dependent on truck sales. To cater, torque and fuel economy are more important than raw horsepower.

We will probably see a split in the V8 engines down the road. One specifically for passenger cars (high hp, high fuel economy) and one for light trucks (high torque).
Adding to this and to serve as an example, when the new Corvette debuts (C7), the "rumor" is that the small block will be a normally aspirated ~450hp mill. The supercharger may follow but initially people might need to settle wth (or get used to) under 500hp. The C7 loses a few hundred pounds.

Weight loss is going to be the trend in maintaining performance. You don't need huge hp figures if the porkiness goes away - as it well should.
 

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As Carbon Fiber becomes more common place(ie easier to work with/ produce) its should be easier to lower weight. Granted we arent anywhere near that point to use massive amounts of CF other than on low volume expensive cars.
 

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Mopar-nac The Moderator
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The 370hp is starting to feel kind of low compared to the "mid" versions of the Camaro SS and Mustang GT, both putting out over 420hp. Does anyone know if it's going to just keep the same ratings on the 5.7 cars in 2014? Even the trucks get 390hp (I assume because of dual exhaust?). With the horsepower wars seemingly on again, you would think that their most "common" version would be made to compete harder with the direct competition. It's been sitting at these numbers in the 5.7 quite some time now.
The key difference between the truck and car variants of the 5.7 Hemi is the intake manifold.

As for changes, supposedly changes are coming to the 5.7. Personally, peak numbers if the Ford and GM competing engines mean little more than Internet bench racing to me.

Mike
 

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I'm still waiting for aluminum engine blocks for which (sadly) I've been told is not a reality at this point.

100 pound weight savings (from the end of the car that needs it most) anyone? Sounds like low hanging fruit to me.....
 

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The issue is the economic viability of the amount of aluminum needed to make all those blocks. They make a lot of Hemis. I'll put it this way, the Hemi became more profitable than the LA block engines it replaced, the 4.7L which if I remember correctly is more expensive, even with the Hemi having MDS. It's going to eat profits to do so, and with the Hemi take rate slowly going down why would they bother? The iron block is reliable and cheap to mass produce, they don't need to change that for sales to continue. They can implement weight savings elsewhere and improve aero, something they are already doing.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The Charger weighs in at an astonishing 4600 pounds, nearly as much as my GC R/T. Shedding 100 pounds off it is meaningless. Shedding 1,000 off it would be more of what it needs.

Regardless of weight, hp numbers matter to a lot of people. This isn't just "internet testing" and such, these are the numbers on the sticker on the vehicle sitting on the dealer lot. Stock. 426hp on the Camaro SS, and 420 on the Mustang GT. 440hp on the high-output Boss 302. 370hp stock on the Charger/Challenger R/T pales in comparison to these numbers. The SRT is not comparable to these models, it's comparable to the top-level models of each, and Ford and Chevy are miles ahead with the ZL1 and the GT500 not even being able to closely compared to the current SRT (though the supposedly upcoming blown 6.2 would bring it closer).

When looking at what is currently being sold, 370 pales in comparison to 426 and 420. Both of the stock Chevy and Ford easily out-accelerate a Charger/Challenger in 0-60 (5.2s in Charger (AWD) 5.4s in Charger RWD, vs. 4.8s in Camaro and 4.5s in the GT and 4.0s in the Boss 302) and quarter mile times. Dodge needs to do something to up its game. They're falling behind. Way behind. And not just in the $55-65k range. They need to up what average people like to buy.
 

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Darkpaw said:
The Charger weighs in at an astonishing 4600 pounds, nearly as much as my GC R/T. Shedding 100 pounds off it is meaningless. Shedding 1,000 off it would be more of what it needs.

Regardless of weight, hp numbers matter to a lot of people. This isn't just "internet testing" and such, these are the numbers on the sticker on the vehicle sitting on the dealer lot. Stock. 426hp on the Camaro SS, and 420 on the Mustang GT. 440hp on the high-output Boss 302. 370hp stock on the Charger/Challenger R/T pales in comparison to these numbers. The SRT is not comparable to these models, it's comparable to the top-level models of each, and Ford and Chevy are miles ahead with the ZL1 and the GT500 not even being able to closely compared to the current SRT (though the supposedly upcoming blown 6.2 would bring it closer).

When looking at what is currently being sold, 370 pales in comparison to 426 and 420. Both of the stock Chevy and Ford easily out-accelerate a Charger/Challenger in 0-60 (5.2s in Charger (AWD) 5.4s in Charger RWD, vs. 4.8s in Camaro and 4.5s in the GT and 4.0s in the Boss 302) and quarter mile times. Dodge needs to do something to up its game. They're falling behind. Way behind. And not just in the $55-65k range. They need to up what average people like to buy.
Do you even look at torque or hp curves or power density? HP really doesn't mean anything, ask the Stanley Steamer, it proved that point back in the 20s. They are behind in numbers, not usability, Chrysler wins that every time. The average people do buy it, why do you think the 300C and R/T Charger and Magnums sold so well, and continue to do so?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
What I care about is that the Charger/Challenger is nearly a second (or more) slower in 0-60 acceleration than its competitors, and Chrysler doesn't seem to care.

Usability? That's your counter-argument? That Dodge makes a more usable vehicle? Though that be it true, it's hardly the thing to market a sports car. They're slower cars, period. They need to fix this, or they will lose customers.
 

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Darkpaw said:
What I care about is that the Charger/Challenger is nearly a second (or more) slower in 0-60 acceleration than its competitors, and Chrysler doesn't seem to care.

Usability? That's your counter-argument? That Dodge makes a more usable vehicle? Though that be it true, it's hardly the thing to market a sports car. They're slower cars, period. They need to fix this, or they will lose customers.
Well satisfaction rates with Chrysler vehicles is high, even with Consumer Reports, the place that is basically Hell on earth for Chrysler. Explain that. Chrysler has never been interested in being the biggest, just making the best vehicle they can their way. If people don't like it, they won't buy it. They have in the past, they will in the future. Chrysler has other products that will sell better than the V8 cars, they are the niche market anymore, it's not really that important for them to be on top in terms of sales. They have improvements coming, the cars are going to be much lighter and more aerodynamic in the next generations. Engines are about the last thing they are concerned about right now, but improvements are coming, so stop making an issue about something they are already working on.
 

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ask the Stanley Steamer, it proved that point back in the 20
And now it's a carpet cleaner ;) Unfortunately, while Stanley might have been a superior solution in its time, it is not "what sold" (after a while anyway). The best product does not always win and the under-informed will use peak power as a guide rather than acceleration times.

Weight reduction in the body does seem more cost effective in one regard -- it helps EVERY car, not just the ones with the Hemi.
 

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Darkpaw said:
What I care about is that the Charger/Challenger is nearly a second (or more) slower in 0-60 acceleration than its competitors, and Chrysler doesn't seem to care.

Usability? That's your counter-argument? That Dodge makes a more usable vehicle? Though that be it true, it's hardly the thing to market a sports car. They're slower cars, period. They need to fix this, or they will lose customers.
I know a lot of people that went Challenger because it has a usable back seat, trunk and you can actually see out of it, unlike the Camaro. I would take the Challenger everyday of the week over a Mustang or Camaro because I can actually live with it.
 

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The benefit to making the 5.7 all Aluminum is great. But you can't just make the block out of aluminum and call it a day, there are a couple years of development and millions of dollars to be spent for this huge weight saving. Therefore, it is simpler to save weight elsewhere. This is what a Chrysler engineer told me.
 

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Mopar-nac The Moderator
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I'm still waiting for aluminum engine blocks for which (sadly) I've been told is not a reality at this point.

100 pound weight savings (from the end of the car that needs it most) anyone? Sounds like low hanging fruit to me.....
Borrow from Peter to pay Paul...

Is the 100 pounds worth the cost of durability? Is the 100 pounds worth the cost of manufacturing? Is the 100 pounds worth cost of engineering? Is 100 pounds worth the cost of... We can go on and on.

I'm still quite curious how the Ford aluminum engines that do not have cast iron cylinder liners will actually hold up over the long haul. They sound like great blocks of scrap aluminum to recoup replacement costs down the road. I don't know what Ford uses as feedstock for its PTWA spraying unfortunately, I assume it is a proprietary Molybdenum. I often wonder if they can be resprayed and/or remachined.

Mike

Did we all just miss something here?
I don't know? Did we?

Mike

What I care about is that the Charger/Challenger is nearly a second (or more) slower in 0-60 acceleration than its competitors, and Chrysler doesn't seem to care.

Usability? That's your counter-argument? That Dodge makes a more usable vehicle? Though that be it true, it's hardly the thing to market a sports car. They're slower cars, period. They need to fix this, or they will lose customers.
What is there to fix? Plenty of 12 second 5.7 Hemi's out there. The Eagle is very very competitive package right out of the box.

Mike

One more thought. I am willing to put money on the the weight savings being closer to 80 pounds, not 100 by the time all the engineering is said and done.

Mike
 

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I would say the 5.7 Eagle with the next generation 8 speed, along with the 2014 redesign of the Challenger could put it spitting distance from the 12's
 

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Discussion Starter #19
"...What is there to fix? Plenty of 12 second 5.7 Hemi's out there. The Eagle is very very competitive package right out of the box..."

Indeed. Numbers I had quoted above are all stock. If we're getting into modded numbers, there are just as many (probably more) mods available for a Mustang than there are for a Charger...the Mustang is probably the most modded "non-rice" car on the market. Keep in mind it's only since the SEMA show this past year that we could even tune 11+ Hemis at all, because the code was locked (making an Eagle upgrade impossible at the time). Following the DS boards, it looks like a lot of customers are having problems with the tuners, in fact. Hopefully they get this fixed before I pick up my 2014 Charger. The ZF tranny is supposed to help with acceleration numbers, as well (though not as much as on the 3.6, apparently).
 

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Mopar-nac The Moderator
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Indeed. Numbers I had quoted above are all stock. If we're getting into modded numbers, there are just as many (probably more) mods available for a Mustang than there are for a Charger...the Mustang is probably the most modded "non-rice" car on the market. Keep in mind it's only since the SEMA show this past year that we could even tune 11+ Hemis at all, because the code was locked (making an Eagle upgrade impossible at the time). Following the DS boards, it looks like a lot of customers are having problems with the tuners, in fact. Hopefully they get this fixed before I pick up my 2014 Charger. The ZF tranny is supposed to help with acceleration numbers, as well (though not as much as on the 3.6, apparently).
The answers to your original questions are quite clear.

I don't really car what mods are available. The cars are very competing out of the box despite the assumed disadvantage.

Three different cars with three different engine power curves. The numbers are quite distinct. The Hemi shines where it needs too and will continue too.

As for the 3.6 with ZF, it accelerates very good.

Ford will always have more available aftermarket than Chrysler will.

Mike
 
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