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· Vaguely badass...
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They are at least two years too late. Chevy has already made two concepts and even said they are looking for a $20,000 price range. The retro styled red car is the Code 130R the Cruze based silver is Tru 140S.
Too late for what? Chevy didn't bother to bring a 2-door Cruze to the showrooms here - must be a reason. Those concepts are just that - I don't see production intent as they sit, but I do see potential for the next re-design of the Cruze. The 140S will have a better chance once people forget that it looks like a Mitsubishi Eclipse. ;) And I won't be surprised if the red one grows a set of rear doors.

Subaru's new BRZ/Scion's new FR-S are niche players at best. Not saying they won't be good cars, but saying that Dodge needs to hurry and up follow another automaker into a niche just because doesn't make much sense to me. Now, if they can do so profitably where the bits and pieces are shared with other models, great. I'm all for gravy sales in that regard. Then again, niche and low-volume might be better served by an Alfa Romeo model.
 

· Vaguely badass...
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Automotive News said:
Subaru's BRZ sport coupe goes on sale April 20, but only about 500 units will be available each month for the U.S. market.

That means that some of Subaru's 620 U.S. dealers won't have a BRZ at launch and most will get only one car a month.

It is unlikely the United States will receive more than about 6,000 of the rear-wheel-drive coupes a year even in a full-year of production, said Michael McHale, Subaru of America's director of corporate communications.

McHale said Subaru of America asked for only 6,000 annually. He said the U.S. sales arm made a conservative request because little was known about the car during most of its joint development with Toyota.

Earlier this year, Scion boss Jack Hollis said his brand expects to sell 10,000 to 15,000 units of the FR-S in 2012.

Full article: http://www.autonews.com/article/20120402/OEM01/304029991#ixzz1qwAYNwuh
I've heard a lot of talk from the [this word has been banned due to its use as a pointless flame tool]ys of how awesome and great the BRZ/FR-S are going to be (OMG! 2 door coupe! RWD!) - but if Subaru of America only asked for 6000 units for the entire year, and Toyota says 10-15K for the year...seems the automakers don't share the same enthusiasm.

Hyundai themselves stated that they expect the Elantra coupe and GT to only augment Elantra sedan sales - they are selling every Elantra sedan they make here, so by importing coupes and GTs using excess capacity overseas, they can offer them with little effort.

Essentially, you are looking at 1000 or less units per month of these coupes.

If CGLLC had excess capacity to offer a Dart coupe and could do it profitably, great. I don't see it anytime soon.
 

· Vaguely badass...
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^ same with most pickup owners too. Still better to have the capability and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Not necessarily. What I haul most is people. If I need to haul more people or stuff, that's what my minivan is for. My car is usually just me on a daily basis. And if I need more capacity, I have a brother and a father with pickup trucks. For me, the best solution for my needs was a sedan.

My theory is that automakers are trying to push sedans since its the least common denominator, and most people can live with them. It takes the least amount of effort to design one that people will actually accept.
And yet there are plenty of sedans that don't sell as well as others. My theory is that they design and sell sedans because, overall, that's what consumers are buying.

Sedans only really appeal to non car people...I see them not even as cars but appliances...transportation devices, if you will.
I don't consider myself a "non-car person", and yet my sedan appeals to me - even after 14 years. Many consumers view cars as appliances, regardless of the body style.

To pay a little higher insurance, to get less mpg, to deal with a little less convenience, and to be a little less comfortable while you drive is a small price to pay for an enthusiast who loves his/her car.
Or, one can find a car they really like, pay less money for insurance, get acceptable MPG, not give up any convenience, and be comfortable while they drive - which is what I did. Not sure why some folks think that someone that drives a sedan isn't an enthusiast or a "car person." Like driving their choice of car is a death sentence or something.

The trouble in America is that most people dont love cars or driving...theyd rather wallow down the boulvard in a softly sprung blob of a car while texting and sucking down Starbucks coffee rather than have an exhilarating romp in a performance car. Its just sad, really.
Can only speak for myself. I'm not most people, I don't text or drink absurdly expensive coffee while I drive, and I've had plenty of exhilarating romps in my decidedly non-performance car. What's sad to me is how many folks write some cars off because the numbers on paper aren't that much, it has too many doors, and they never put their butts in the seat to experience it for themselves.

And I can understand that, totally. But the Magnum DID have a sedan equivalent, it was the 300. The outer body panels are mostly very similar. The Charger is the one thats significantly different, yet all 3 and the Chally are on the same platform. Killing the Magnum was idiotic, the excuse was that it wasnt selling. That was a load of crap, it just wasnt selling quite as much as the charger/300 but it was definitely profitable. Now that there are vague plans of a more car-like Dakota replacement, an ElCamino-ish version of the Magnum would make total sense. It would be capable of decent load carrying, good mpgs, and with Hemi and awd capability already on the parts shelf they couldnt lose.
Once the Charged debuted, Magnum sales tanked. It became a niche piece, and for Challenger to live Magnum had to die.

Your "ElMagnum-ino" would likely cost at least as much to bring to market as the Challenger itself did - and I don't think it would have sold any better than the Magnum itself. Too many compromises, and I would imaging one could likely get a Ram 1500 Express for the same or less money with the same or better capabilities - pretty much why the Dakota wasn't doing all that well any more.

 

· Vaguely badass...
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For what it's worth, I checked the weights of the 1G Neon Highline Coupe versus Highline Sedan. The coupe indeed weighs less - by all of 41 pounds. Then I checked the old Dodge Aries K coupe versus sedan - coupe was less by 26 pounds. Then I got relevant and checked the 2012 Charger versus the Challenger - and the coupe weighs less by 162 pounds. It's also physically smaller than the sedan - unlike the Neon and Aries examples, where the only change was the number of doors - overall dimensions are the same.

...but sedans are definitely for the old fogeys.
Respect your elders, sonny. ;)

Thats why Olds, Buick, Mercury, etc are mostly all sedans.
Olds is dead. Mercury is dead. Buick has shaved, IIRC, 15 years off the age of it's average buyer. I can't think of ANY automaker that doesn't offer sedans - and they aren't all marketed to "old fogeys."

But hatches are doing QUITE well: MazdaSpeed 3s, Minis, GTIs, 5 door WRX/STIs, Scion xBs, etc are all selling very well. Dodge had better get on board and do the SRT4 right this time, because all of those performance oriented hatches are selling very well...and usually outselling the sedan versions.
Looking at sales numbers - the automakers don't break out the performance models of their vehicles from the rest, so it's hard to tell if they are doing "quite" well or "very well" or "outselling the sedan versions."

The Golf (including GTI) moved ~4000 units last month, compared to ~12000 Jetta sedans.
Scion moved ~2700 FR-S coupes and ~2100 tC hatchbacks in June - but only ~1900 of the xB. Scion doesn't really have a sedan - but Corolla's in the same showroom moved ~26600 units.
Subaru moved ~6300 Imprezas (including WRX and STi) in June.

Boring, bland, old fogey mid-size sedans did OK for themselves, too.
200: ~11000
Avenger: ~9400
Fusion: ~24500
Malibu: ~31000
Accord: ~29000
Sonata: ~21000
Optima: ~13000
Altima: ~21800
Camry: ~32000

Personal opinion: the "hot hatch/performance compact coupe" market is simply too small for a high level of investment and focus at this time for Dodge.
 

· Vaguely badass...
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I had no idea that Ford had a Focus Coupe.
They must not have been big sellers.
They weren't - and that's a reason why they don't offer one today.

think about what is more fun to drive: a 4door family sedan, or a 2door coupe that handles well?
Why no option for a 4-door sedan that handles well? Like the one I own?
 

· Vaguely badass...
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Dont quote me, but Im PRETTY sure the MazdaSpeed 3 is available as a sedan and a hatch. Ive never actually seen a sedan variant though.
Mazdaspeed3 was and is only available as a 5-door/hatch. The Mazda3 is available as a 5-door/hatch or a 4-door sedan.

Id say very few Charger owners bought that car because it was their first choice...its a compromise for someone who wants a real muscle car yet needs a family friendly car. Why else would it be slushbox-only?
I'm not seeing what's so wrong with a family-friendly muscle car.

As far as "slush-box only" - money. Would the sales of a manual-transmission Charger have been great enough to cover the millions of dollars in R&D, production, and crash-testing costs? I would venture to say "no." But the Challenger got one. Because in THAT market, with THAT car, it made sense to do so.

Bringing up the Bimmers seems a bit of a weak argument too, since I wasnt even sure it existed till I Googled it just now. Ive never actually seen one...every M3 Ive come across has been a coupe or ragtop.
Not an argument - or an opinion - just stating a fact.

Ill point this out again: My anti-sedan hate factor is a matter of personal opinion...but its a fact that more choices are good for everyone. Im pushing for a choice to buy the car I want, not to eradicate sedans from the showrooms.
Choice is good. However, the more choices you offer, the more complexity is involved and your costs go up. Again - does the increase in cost - which would inevitably get passed to the consumer - guarantee an increase in sales?
 

· Vaguely badass...
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you'd be right, IF the bodystyle didnt already exist. The investment has been in the suspension and engine upgrades, and the SRT-4 is all but confirmed. It just needs a proper bodystyle is all.
The costs to design and engineer that body style - to fit on the existing production line - to crash test it - and all the other costs involved - for, in the case of the SRT-4, what is a limited-production vehicle - is there a business case. Let's say, for example, that in order to provide you with a Dart SRT-4 AWD Coupe, the end retail price is $35000. Will you - or anyone else - buy one?

No sedan, no matter what kind of sales it has, no matter what the mpgs, no matter how reliable, not even what kind of performance numbers, will ever, EVER get my dollar.
If you wish to completely ignore that entire category that may actually suit your desires out of hand just because of the number of doors and body style is indeed your choice.

I was free to make my choice, too. Believe it or not, one can buy and own a sedan and be quite happy with it. Mine would hold corners like glue, and I didn't need gobs of power to drive it fast and have fun with it.
 

· Vaguely badass...
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Sometimes it's marketing. I have a Sebring "Coupe" but it's classified a Pillared Hardtop by the Insurance Company...
Sometimes it's ancient information systems and nomenclature that hasn't been updated since the 30's.

My minivans have all been titled by the State of Illinois as "carryalls."

The most power you need in a light car is 200, and for a heavy car like 350 to be able to have fun.
Not so sure about that.

My Stratus delivers about 120whp and is quite fun to drive. Moreso when the rest of the family isn't in it, of course.

I recall having plenty of fun in an 84hp Pontiac Fiero, too.
 

· Vaguely badass...
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Not every coupe buyer wants "moar power" under the hood. Years ago my wife bought an '80's Mustang - with a 4-cylinder. She didn't need or want the power - she likes Mustangs. It was that simple. When she goes to auto shows with me, she always gravitates to them. And Ford sold plenty of "secretary special" 4-cylinder Mustangs.

Just saying. I get the appeal of sport compact cars, muscle cars, pony cars, coupes, and all that. It's just not an appeal everyone shares universally.
 

· Vaguely badass...
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The Avenger/Sebring were Eclipse BASED but where youre off point is that the 1st and 2nd gen Eclipses if you maxed out the options offered 2 of the key features of most sport compacts: AWD and turbo power. That combined with cutting edge styling made those cars a success. The (1st gen) Mopar derivatives were stuck with a bigger, heavier body and a weak v6 as the top engine choice, at one point the V6 didnt offer a 5speed.
Except that the 95-00 Avenger and Sebring coupes weren't the "1st gen" Mopar derivatives of the Eclipse. That honor goes to the Plymouth Laser and Eagle Talon. The 90-94 Eagle Talon TSi offered a turbo and optional AWD. The 90-94 Plymouth Laser RS offered a turbo, with AWD optional in 92-94.

The 2G Eclipse begat the 2G Eagle Talon - still available in TSi trim with turbo and AWD. The Avenger and Sebring coupes had longer wheelbases and could be said to be more "2-door Galant" than "Eclipse." The V6 in the Avenger/Sebring was never offered with a manual - it was automatic only.

My point is, yes, the dollars have to add up, but to say that it isnt viable for Dodge to invest the money in a balls out sport compact is just buying into their lame excuses. The proof is in how many other makers are offering coupes with good performance. Those models are the ones that actually sell the lesser ones by generating interest in the company as a whole. If you dont believe that, then look where Chrysler was pre-Viper and pre-'93 Ram. They took some risks, they offered striking vehicles and people cared about Mopar all over again.
Dodge offers two coupes with good performance - Challenger and Viper.

Darts are just starting to reach showrooms and already folks are clamoring for coupes and hatchbacks and SRT models. All those things take not only money, but TIME.

As far as generating interest, Dart's in Rally Car racing - as a sedan - and generating a buzz. That's a good start, I think.

The parts are there, since Im sure the 6 spd from the Wrangler, or a derivative would work. I probably wouldnt buy a v6 Challenger for any reason, but they would sell a ton of 5spd v6 models to those who really want the Hemi version but cant make the $$ pan out. I see a LOT of guys in '05 up V6 mustangs for just that reason.
Again, money. Sorry to keep beating that drum, but sadly it's true. Testing and crash costs alone might be enough to kill it. I would like that we'd see it after the upcoming redesign rather than band-aided onto the current car. Admittedly I don't know much about the NSG370 6-speed manual, other than it's used in the Wrangler, Liberty, and Nitro. I'm not sure that it's characteristics would suit the Challenger V6. Then again, it was used in the Crossfire, too.
 

· Vaguely badass...
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Subaru has TWO audiences - the "tuners" that fawn all over the WRX/STi, and those that have always liked Subarus.

With the tuner crowd, sometimes all it takes are the magic words "turbo" and "AWD" for some of them to worship at the altar.

I'm not convinced there are "AWD setups right off the shelf ready to drop in at Chrysler" that would be compatible with the Dart at this time. Everything we've read and heard points to the new 9-speed automatic being key to offering AWD on that platform, and it's not ready for prime time yet.

$35K is certainly a wild-posterior guess. Neon SRT-4 was a success despite the host car baggage and lack of AWD because it hit the sweet spot of the market. Caliber SRT-4 wasn't as much of a success - despite the higher power it was wrapped in a somewhat bulky and unattractive body, and per Ralph Gilles, while they really really wanted AWD, the costs simply pushed it too far up the scale. Once you add AWD to a sport compact, it seems that crowd puts it up against the Mitsu Evo and Subaru STi, so I would expect such a car to be priced accordingly - and in my opinion, that's just too high to hit the sweet spot.

As far as a Dart coupe, I'm sitting here staring at images of the Elantra sedan and coupe, and not seeing enough difference to justify the cost expense to create one. Interesting to note, the Elantra Coupe weighs ~30 more than the sedan. :huh:
 

· Vaguely badass...
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Where Subaru fumbled the SVX was in having it slushbox-only. That doesnt cut it with enthusiasts, and Im not sure if that car was even turbo'd. Comparable cars (Supra, 300ZX, Mitsu 3000GT/Stealth) at the time trounced it. Looked great on the outside though, but they didnt go all the way with it.
No turbo, boxer 6 only. And automatic only, because at that time Subaru didn't have a strong-enough manual transmission to support that engine. The window-within-the-window was kinda goofy, too.

Chrysler does have awd setups that can go right into the dart: Look at the Caliber/compass/patriot's setups. The parts are there, granted some modifications would be needed, but the tooling exists and theyre tried and true.
If you have to modify it, then it's not going to go "right in". ;) AWD on the Caliber was only offered with the CVT2, which the Dart doesn't use. Freedom Drive I is available on Patriot with the 5-speed, but the Dart doesn't use that 5-speed either. Again, the answer here is the upcoming 9-speed with the AWD support.

I knew you were just taking a potshot with the $35K...and like I said, you might be on point, but theres no justification for it. The Caliber certainly was polarizing in its looks but I liked it just fine. Its lack of awd kind of killed its performance in stock trim, and Im not sure how much aftermarket support there is for it. All things being equal, I like the CSRT-4 a lot, and only wish the PT cruiser GT wouldve gotten that engine: 265 hp before any mods? Yes please!
Not a potshot - like I said, AWD and turbo sticks it up in Evo/STi-land in many minds.

Again, AWD on the Caliber was only available in R/T trim, and only with the CVT2. I think that the CVT2 might have been the buzzkill in regards to performance overall on an R/T AWD Caliber. That 285HP at the crank was understated; dyno runs on stock CSRT4's showed 281 at the wheels. It might seem picky, but the only thing really stopping me from liking the Caliber overall was the grille. Had it gotten updated like the rest of the line with the "split crosshair" I might have considered it.

Subaru is moving WRX/STis, but Im also seeing a LOT of old Impreza coupes stuffed with STi guts...same thing with 1st gen neon coupes getting SRT-4 transplants. If people are willing to go that far to get the cars they want on their own, then there MUST be a market.
Yes - for USED cars. ;)

Ive seen that Elantra coupe and its kinda meh...not all coupes are sporty looking. The Kia Forte Koup on the other hand....gorgeous car, they just need to nut up and stuff that 2.0T under the hood. I think in a lot of ways its better and better looking than the scion tC which its clearly gunning for. Wish THAT car was the Dart coupe, with the SRT-4 treatment!
I do like the Forte more than the Elantra, in both sedan and coupe forms. The tC never did much for me.
 

· Vaguely badass...
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True, but modding an existing piece to work is easier than designing all new from the ground up. The platforms arent THAT dissimilar.
While that may be true, time marches on and the only constant is change. Both the Compass and Patriot are set to drop the CVT2 and move to a traditional 6-speed automatic, and it appears that the AWD system that may be used is the Magna Dynamax system, currently exclusive to Hyundai/Kia for the 2011 and 2012 model years.
 

· Vaguely badass...
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No, the Dynamax AWD system is from Magna. Hyundai/Kia simply obtained exclusive rights to it for two model years.

(For what it's worth, the 6-speed automatic in the Dart is the Hyundai Powertech 6F24 unit. And is it any worse that Fiat/Alfa guts in Dodge skin? How about Mitsubishi guts in Dodge skin?)
 

· Vaguely badass...
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For a long time, the 4*TE/6*TE was heralded as the smallest FWD transaxle. Is that still the case? I ask, because Hyundai Powertech is making similar claims with the 6F** transaxle line up, and it's been said that the reason the Dart uses 6F** instead of a 6*TE.
 
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