[HotCarNut]

STLA is reaping the "reward" of phoning it in with the 4xe. The entire system was prebuilt by ZF. Rather than actually get it to 100% they just seem to have buttoned it up and let it loose on customers. And now is an AMAZING time to mention ZF is now already 2 generations ahead of the 4xe. This next blurb is direct from ZF:



10% range increase vs the Gen4!?! Which STLA never even put in a CDJR vehicle. To put things in better perspective, here are some specs:

2 Generation old 4xe ZF Hybrid (we are here)
Power: 100 kW (134hp)
Torque: 245 Nm (181 lb-ft)

Gen4 ZF Hybrid
Power: 160 kW (215hp)
Torque: 450 Nm (332 lb-ft)
Efficiency improvement vs prev gen: up to 13%

ZF 8HP Evo Hybrid
Power: 200 kW (268hp)
Torque: 600 Nm (443 lb-ft)
Efficiency improvement vs Gen4: up to 10%

Seriously, is STLA yet again choosing the "get out of the way" option? This was a slow pitch, and they couldn't even manage it. Sigh.

I've actually thought about, after my lease is up, buying a dirt cheap used 4xe Rubicon X (the residual values are just horrendous) and seeing if I could aftermarket upgrade the transmission to the latest ZF and reflash the software. Not sure it would work, but as cheap as the used ones are these days it's starting to be tempting.

 

[Dave Z]

Just a few years ago, Wrangler had one of the best resale values in the industry.
Remember when Daimler killed minivan resale - also once quite high - by flooding the market with prior-year models?

 

[valiant67]

I remember when STLA was pushing Wrangler 4Xe on customers. Two years ago a big CDJR dealer in Seattle had dozens of Wrangler 4Xes listed for 10% down and monthly lease payments in the $200/month range. Yes, that deal included the $7,500 tax credit, but you could not get anything else for that kind of money, other than a Honda Civic.

They must have moved hundreds of Wranglers this way. I wonder how many of these customers are now willing to get another Jeep as the end of their lease approaches.

The other thing that early leases benefited from were way too high residuals. The leasing companies have to be hurting on these, some over $10k too high now that people are comparing their buyouts with actual values.

 

[aldo90731]

By contrast, Ford is pushing hard on its electrified vehicles.

 

[HotCarNut]

The other thing that early leases benefited from were way too high residuals. The leasing companies have to be hurting on these, some over $10k too high now that people are comparing their buyouts with actual values.

Yeah, my 2024 Rubicon X 4xe stickered for a shade over $73k I think. Even with the tax credit, by the time you add sales tax back I think it would have been roughly $71k and I put $1500 down. My lease payment is $773.60/mo on a 3 yr lease with 10k miles per year. So after all payments ($27,849.60 + 1500) if they were ALL applied to principal (and they're not - the leasing company is recognizing profit on interest income I'm sure) you'd have a remaining buyout of $41,650 on a 3 yr old 4xe with 30k miles. On the used market today? It's about $32k to go buy one. I'm guessing my buyout quote from Chrysler Capital will be closer to $46k and I'll laugh all the way to the lease return.

 

[Kyanche]

Additional powertrain options means 392, which was already announced, and probably 5.7, because nothing can't be solved with a V8. What might actually please some customers more is reasonably decent gas mileage, e.g. the Cherokee solution.

In the Wrangler and Gladiator, I ponder if a 5.7 with MDS would actually be more fuel efficient than a 3.6 because the low end torque works well with pushing a brick through the air. You would be cruising around at 1000rpm when the 3.6 would be doing 2500rpm.

TBH I think car manufacturers should be penalized when engines fail sooner than 10 years/100k miles. Maybe that would stop them from making shitty rude goldberg machines that use 0w8 oil, turn off at every stop sign, and are half made out of plastic.

The funny thing about EVs is they gave STLA the golden opportunity to walk away from their reputation of bad reliability and they managed to screw that up.

 

[HotCarNut]

By contrast, Ford is pushing hard on its electrified vehicles.

View attachment 116315

But they've cut way back on production targets for both and put a full stop on the factory they were building in KY or TN (can't remember which) to build EVs. This is NOT just a STLA pivot, although STLA is arguably worse at it than Ford or GM. The only ones "full go" on their EV plans are the Koreans. Rivian is behind and slow-rolling new models, Lucid's in trouble, Tesla is behind although Elon will get them caught up one way or another.

 

[Adventurer55]

By contrast, Ford is pushing hard on its electrified vehicles.

View attachment 116315

That way they can recall even more vehicles.

 

[Adventurer55]

One of the reasons, in my opinion, that Stellantis has gaps here besides bad management is theyre trying to handle EVs and ice at the same time. So they quit all ice development in favor of EVs a couple years ago. Now thanks to the government relaxing regs ice is coming back. Ford may be right in investing billions in EVs. Stellantis has other problems to deal with first. They at least have platforms now that are easily adapted back to EVs if the market changes. Although I dont think even if there's a change in politics after 28, I don't see EV mandates returning in the near future. Battery technology continues to evolve and with it better charge times and longer range as well. I'm not biting on an EV until some stability occurs and we ain't there yet. This reminds me of the early computer days. You bought one and its obsolete in a year.

 

[mentalicca]

The other problem is we have a company that stopped iterating. You cannot reasonably expect good results with "full stop" lifecycles. Wranger and GC 4xe should be been the intro and they should be announcing more hybridized vehicles, not less.

I am very torn with the company right now. On one hand their some good guts and some very attainable low hanging fruit. But if they continue down this very regressive path, there will not be a company to talk about.

They need to actually LEARN from their previous failures in gambling the market. If the political climate shifts dramatically again in 1-3 years, it will be the exact same conversation.

Just stop guessing, gambling, whatever. Have marketable vehicles beyond horsepower numbers, especially for when gas inevitably shoots back up in price. Have a solid electrified vehicle base. More than the now DOA Hornet, the slowly dying 4xes, the Cherokee, and the Recon maybe. I wont even count the Charger/WagS until they have sales in more than 4 figures. The problem is, the should have these vehicles out now. Not 2-3yrs from now.

 

[valiant67]

One of the reasons, in my opinion, that Stellantis has gaps here besides bad management is theyre trying to handle EVs and ice at the same time. So they quit all ice development in favor of EVs a couple years ago. Now thanks to the government relaxing regs ice is coming back. Ford may be right in investing billions in EVs. Stellantis has other problems to deal with first. They at least have platforms now that are easily adapted back to EVs if the market changes. Although I dont think even if there's a change in politics after 28, I don't see EV mandates returning in the near future. Battery technology continues to evolve and with it better charge times and longer range as well. I'm not biting on an EV until some stability occurs and we ain't there yet. This reminds me of the early computer days. You bought one and its obsolete in a year.

They are stupid because the are assuming what is happening to make the most profit right now is what is going to happen forever.
Smart companies know there is a market for gas, electric, and hybrids.
This changing directions every few years is incredibly expensive and leaves the lineup bare.
Stellantis can’t compete in EVs for the same reason they can’t compete in gasoline. High prices, dubious quality, lack of updated designs the public wants.

 

[Adventurer55]

They are stupid because the are assuming what is happening to make the most profit right now is what is going to happen forever.
Smart companies know there is a market for gas, electric, and hybrids.
This changing directions every few years is incredibly expensive and leaves the lineup bare.
Stellantis can’t compete in EVs for the same reason they can’t compete in gasoline. High prices, dubious quality, lack of updated designs the public wants.

What's going on today has its roots planted in 2016, and made worse by Tavares. The whole XE thing was a waste of time, in my opinion. While it appealed to some, it was done in typical FCA fashion half assed, and needed redos and updates which apparently it won't get now. If there's any EV type future for Stellantis here I hope it's in real hybrids. Did it damage the brand? Heck yes, but Sergio didn't care as long as he got his merger.

 

[valiant67]

What's going on today has its roots planted in 2016, and made worse by Tavares. The whole XE thing was a waste of time, in my opinion. While it appealed to some, it was done in typical FCA fashion half assed, and needed redos and updates which apparently it won't get now. If there's any EV type future for Stellantis here I hope it's in real hybrids. Did it damage the brand? Heck yes, but Sergio didn't care as long as he got his merger.

Any sensible, long term plan needs to cover all bases, Stellantis tried this on the cheap and it did not work. There is no way around the need for gas and EVs at the same time. Hybrids need to be in the mix now as well. Other manufacturers manage to juggle all that but Stellantis cannot.
Retreating back to gasoline only snd abandoning EV and PHEV markets is the mark of a loser.

 

[codypet]

STLA is reaping the "reward" of phoning it in with the 4xe. The entire system was prebuilt by ZF. Rather than actually get it to 100% they just seem to have buttoned it up and let it loose on customers. And now is an AMAZING time to mention ZF is now already 2 generations ahead of the 4xe. This next blurb is direct from ZF:



10% range increase vs the Gen4!?! Which STLA never even put in a CDJR vehicle. To put things in better perspective, here are some specs:

2 Generation old 4xe ZF Hybrid (we are here)
Power: 100 kW (134hp)
Torque: 245 Nm (181 lb-ft)

Gen4 ZF Hybrid
Power: 160 kW (215hp)
Torque: 450 Nm (332 lb-ft)
Efficiency improvement vs prev gen: up to 13%

ZF 8HP Evo Hybrid
Power: 200 kW (268hp)
Torque: 600 Nm (443 lb-ft)
Efficiency improvement vs Gen4: up to 10%

Seriously, is STLA yet again choosing the "get out of the way" option? This was a slow pitch, and they couldn't even manage it. Sigh.

I guess this was the "power train upgrades" that were planned for the 4xe and the Gladiator in 2025 that I speculated was battery improvements.

Yeah, my 2024 Rubicon X 4xe stickered for a shade over $73k I think. Even with the tax credit, by the time you add sales tax back I think it would have been roughly $71k and I put $1500 down. My lease payment is $773.60/mo on a 3 yr lease with 10k miles per year. So after all payments ($27,849.60 + 1500) if they were ALL applied to principal (and they're not - the leasing company is recognizing profit on interest income I'm sure) you'd have a remaining buyout of $41,650 on a 3 yr old 4xe with 30k miles. On the used market today? It's about $32k to go buy one. I'm guessing my buyout quote from Chrysler Capital will be closer to $46k and I'll laugh all the way to the lease return.

My lease is up in Feb and I'm sure residual is $38k. Up until a month ago I was seeing my similarly spec'd Wrangler at $32 at Carmax

One of the reasons, in my opinion, that Stellantis has gaps here besides bad management is theyre trying to handle EVs and ice at the same time. So they quit all ice development in favor of EVs a couple years ago. Now thanks to the government relaxing regs ice is coming back. Ford may be right in investing billions in EVs. Stellantis has other problems to deal with first. They at least have platforms now that are easily adapted back to EVs if the market changes. Although I dont think even if there's a change in politics after 28, I don't see EV mandates returning in the near future. Battery technology continues to evolve and with it better charge times and longer range as well. I'm not biting on an EV until some stability occurs and we ain't there yet. This reminds me of the early computer days. You bought one and its obsolete in a year.

Those adaptable EV's might be outdated by the time they're ready to switch back. They really need to brace for switching to solid state if they want to save the Charger and Wagoneer S.

 

[mentalicca]

I guess this was the "power train upgrades" that were planned for the 4xe and the Gladiator in 2025 that I speculated was battery improvements.

Based on their current track record of being behind in EV tech adoption, the Gen4 was more likely to be the upgrade than the evo. That is what I and others said it was supposed to be. Regardless it would have been an amazing update. Battery improvements don't make too much sense as yet, as that one is a bit more justifiable for STLA to wait a couple years. If the Factorial batteries prove themselves, I would see that and other battery tech as the next battery generation for STLA.

Here is the speculation we now have, from most to least likely (in my mind):

1. Gen4 ZF Hybrid transmission kit
2. 2.0 Hurricane V2
3. Both of the above
4. Improved battery tech
5. 8HP evo

I think what we have is a classic example of "Perfection Paralysis" at STLA. They keep halting product that may not be perfect, or could be a solid stopgap, because a new feature/upgrade/evolution of a product comes out. So rather than iterate they wait for this new tech. That could actually explain quite a bit of the goings-on.

And when they finally release something, it is inevitably buggy, but not supported. UConnect 5 is a classic example that I will harp on. Much of it is a fantastic UX. But the stuttering sluggishness/bugginess is just plain awful. I am almost certain, given a month, the team I work with (or those of similar or better proficiency) could iron out the big ugly issues and send off a free CSN (Customer Satisfaction Notification), and improve perception across the board. For instance, there is no reason for the touch screen to be laggy by up to 30 seconds at first press. And there is absolutely no reason fixing this shouldn't have been a top priority.

 

[aldo90731]

That way they can recall even more vehicles.

Ford views itself as a leader in electrified vehicles, so it behaves as such.

Stellantis, on the other hand, doesn't view itself as anything...other than a a provider of HEMIs and, apparently, a deserter of segments.

 

[johnb300m]

I wonder if they're going to cancel the 4xe platform altogether.
I know it's anecdotal, but it seems like the socials regarding 4xe are just full of lemon laws and forced buybacks left and right. On top of poor peoples' vehicles sitting at dealers for months and months. While they're all making lease or loan payments, while stuck in some rental Renegade or Compass.

I love the 4xe. But I've also be acutely aware of how lucky I've been having only minor issues.

It's just so sad they've let this platform languish.
2025 is sunsetting and they've made barely any tangible improvements to the platform.
And this latest recall just shows that they don't even know how it work themselves.

At this point, the platform needs a full re-write.....or in Stellantis fashion, they'll probably just kill it?
It's all too bad.

 

[johnb300m]

Ford views itself as a market leader in electrified vehicles, so it behaves as such.

Stellantis, on the other hand, doesn't view itself as anything...other than a provider of HEMIs, apparently.

Oh, and don't forget they also see themselves as "temporarily embarrassed dividend providers."

 

[Adventurer55]

I wonder if they're going to cancel the 4xe platform altogether.
I know it's anecdotal, but it seems like the socials regarding 4xe are just full of lemon laws and forced buybacks left and right. On top of poor peoples' vehicles sitting at dealers for months and months. While they're all making lease or loan payments, while stuck in some rental Renegade or Compass.

I love the 4xe. But I've also be acutely aware of how lucky I've been having only minor issues.

It's just so sad they've let this platform languish.
2025 is sunsetting and they've made barely any tangible improvements to the platform.
And this latest recall just shows that they don't even know how it work themselves.

At this point, the platform needs a full re-write.....or in Stellantis fashion, they'll probably just kill it?
It's all too bad.

Replaced by STLA Frame I'd guess.

 

[johnb300m]

Replaced by STLA Frame I'd guess.

That makes even less sense!

So you're probably right, sigh....lol.