[77 Monaco Brougham]

When demand falls, the most stale products usually suffer first and the most.
Wrangler 4xe is a lot of what has been propping up Wrangler sales. Wrangler is already "old", soon to be 7 model years old.

My, how time flew by while FCA was busy making the balance sheet look pretty while groveling all around the industry looking for someone to rescue them.
OY!

P.S. Please forgive the extra sarcasm. I haven't had any coffee yet!

 

[kmhenry75]

Here are the incentives on the Hornet and you can't even get one yet. What a joke!!!!!!!!!!!

Dodge Deals & Incentives - Check out Current Lease Offers

Discover financing incentives and offers on a Dodge Vehicle near you. Choose the incentives and offers on the Dodge Vehicle you are looking for.

www.dodge.com

I'm afraid that Dodge has severely limited their market with their juvenile emphasis on performance only.

 

[aldo90731]

My, how time flew by while FCA was busy making the balance sheet look pretty while groveling all around the industry looking for someone to rescue them.
OY!

P.S. Please forgive the extra sarcasm. I haven't had any coffee yet!

The underlying issue with Wrangler, which I’ve been saying since JL came out, is that FCA focused too much on the things that gave it widespread appeal and not enough on the things that made Wrangler unique. And to some extent the same can be said of Jeep at large.

Everything that was new with JL had to do with improving daily comfort, convenience and efficiency, but hardly anything was done to keep Wrangler the master of the trails.

This helped FCA jack up prices and line its pockets, but has had two fateful long-term consequences:

1. It attracted a new, more affluent buyer in exchange for the traditional Jeep buyer. This meant higher upfront sales and transaction prices, but a less loyal customer base.
2. It left Wrangler vulnerable to competitive assaults. After a decade dithering on-and-off, Ford finally decided to launch Bronco when Wrangler looked most vulnerable. If you look at Bronco’s positioning, it seeks to keep luring Jeep farther down the path of daily comfort and convenience, less so chase it down the off-road trails.

And Jeep has apparently bit the bait. The problem is that this leads down to a crowded field, just when Jeep buyers are less loyal and have more options than ever.

After FCA spent an entire decade putting all its eggs in Jeep, I wonder what Stellantis’s Plan B is going to be.

 

[aldo90731]

PS - we don’t know exactly what Jeep’s mix in those 120 days supply is.

We are assuming it is Compasses and Renegades because they were showing their age the last time FCA reported sales, three months ago already. But my hunch is that we are going to see a lot of brand-spanking new, grossly overpriced Grand Cherokees and Wagoneers and yes, aging Gladiators as well.

It takes a lot of models to bring up the brand average past 120 days.

We will know more when Stellantis reports Q1 sales in another two weeks.

 

[valiant67]

PS - we don’t know exactly what Jeep’s mix in those 120 days supply is.

We are assuming it is Compasses and Renegades because they were showing their age the last time FCA reported sales, three months ago already. But my hunch is that we are going to see a lot of brand-spanking new, grossly overpriced Grand Cherokees and Wagoneers and yes, aging Gladiators as well.

It takes a lot of models to bring up the brand average past 120 days.

We will know more when Stellantis reports Q1 sales in another two weeks.

These numbers are somewhat meaningless without knowing sales rates, but 25 mile searches for new 2023 models North Atlanta (except Renegades which are only 2022) on the Jeep website. But it looks like it is quite possible the "high margin" vehicles might be stacking up on the lots.
Wagoneer - 11
Grand Wagoneer - 6
Compass - 12
Cherokee - 22
Renegade - 3
Grand Cherokee - 463
Grand Cherokee 4xe - 46
Wrangler - 350
Wrangler 4xe - 142
Gladiator - 190

 

[HotCarNut]

Because inventories are high....the subject of this thread.

2023 Compass with the new powertrain already has 1.9% financing, $500 cash back, and special lease deals.

$2000 cash on 2023 Wrangler 4xe already.....

I feel like they had a lot of margin to play with in the 4xe and the Wrangler in general. Incentivizing them makes sense as it helps build volume faster to reduce cost for both the Wrangler and GC systems. Plus it helps with CAFE and potentially lessening the amount of credits Stellantis has to buy.

 

[HotCarNut]

The underlying issue with Wrangler, which I’ve been saying since JL came out, is that FCA focused too much on the things that gave it widespread appeal and not enough on the things that made Wrangler unique. And to some extent the same can be said of Jeep at large.

Everything that was new with JL had to do with improving daily comfort, convenience and efficiency, but hardly anything was done to keep Wrangler the master of the trails.

This helped FCA jack up prices and lineup its pockets, but has had two fateful long-term consequences:

1. It attracted a new, more affluent buyer in exchange for the traditional Jeep buyer. This meant higher upfront sales and transaction prices, but a less loyal customer base.
2. It left Wrangler vulnerable to competitive assaults. After a decade dithering on-and-off, Ford finally decided to launch Bronco when Wrangler looked most vulnerable. If you look at Bronco’s propositioning, it seeks to keep luring Jeep farther down the path of daily comfort and convenience, less so chase it down the off-road trails.

And Jeep has apparently bit the bait. The problem is that this leads down to a crowded field, just when Jeep buyers are less loyal and have more options than ever.

After FCA spent an entire decade putting all its eggs in Jeep, I wonder what Stellantis’s Plan B is going to be.

I agree the JL focused more on comfort upgrades. However, the bigger issue is the cost engineering throughout and the prevalent steering issues in addition to maintenance on the axles as has been outlined in other threads. Regardless, the Wrangler is still the king off-road. One only has to do a minimal search to find horror stories of Broncos breaking down off-road due to the limited travel of the IFS, boots ripping, etc. The Bronco can best be described as a soft-roader meant for gravel roads or running on the beach. Clearance, angles, and durability ALL still favor Wrangler off-road.

 

[aldo90731]

I agree the JL focused more on comfort upgrades. However, the bigger issue is the cost engineering throughout and the prevalent steering issues in addition to maintenance on the axles as has been outlined in other threads. Regardless, the Wrangler is still the king off-road. One only has to do a minimal search to find horror stories of Broncos breaking down off-road due to the limited travel of the IFS, boots ripping, etc. The Bronco can best be described as a soft-roader meant for gravel roads or running on the beach. Clearance, angles, and durability ALL still favor Wrangler off-road.

I agree. But keeping Wrangler the king of the trails, while the steering keeps it the ogre of the roads is a tough pill to swallow with a new, more affluent and less-loyal customer base, less interested in going off-roading and more interested in taking Junior to karate classes.

 

[Adventurer55]

Ford can spin it all they want, if one is doing REAL off roading, with non military ifs you're kidding yourself. With that said, it still puts Wrangler in a difficult situation. They probably should look at making an ifs for standard Jeeps and doing live axle setups for only the hard core models.

 

[aldo90731]

I am afraid that would be the home stretch of Norm’s famous Jeep going a slippery slope.

What Jeep ought to do, like Porsche did with 911’s rear engine, is stick to its guns, and take the development of the front solid axle to higher levels of refinement and capability.

 

[Adventurer55]

I am afraid that would be the home stretch of Norm’s famous Jeep going a slippery slope.

What Jeep ought to do, like Porsche did with 911’s rear engine, is stick to its guns, and take the development of the front solid axle to higher levels of refinement and capability.

How much more can be done? Dana has made axles for them since the beginning.

 

[valiant67]

How much more can be done? Dana has made axles for them since the beginning.

I don’t think the problem is necessarily the axle itself. It’s the implementation/integration of it into the Jeep. Heavier Jeeps with heavier tires might just need more robust suspension and steering components (with tighter quality control) than some of what was selected for JL. I’d say they over-prioritized low cost and low weight when selecting components, without the experienced players to specify what was really needed. Just a guess, and now we’ve identified two of those components: the aluminum steering box and the steering stabilizer. Oddly I’m seeing lots of posts about shock absorber failures (leaking) even on almost new JL and JT.
So now, besides the battery I guess I’d go to aftermarket for shocks and steering stabilizer too.
Yes, the Dana axle can fail, but it isn’t the weakest link or the cause of poor road manners IMO.

 

[77 Monaco Brougham]

The underlying issue with Wrangler, which I’ve been saying since JL came out, is that FCA focused too much on the things that gave it widespread appeal and not enough on the things that made Wrangler unique. And to some extent the same can be said of Jeep at large.

Everything that was new with JL had to do with improving daily comfort, convenience and efficiency, but hardly anything was done to keep Wrangler the master of the trails.

This helped FCA jack up prices and lineup its pockets, but has had two fateful long-term consequences:

1. It attracted a new, more affluent buyer in exchange for the traditional Jeep buyer. This meant higher upfront sales and transaction prices, but a less loyal customer base.
2. It left Wrangler vulnerable to competitive assaults. After a decade dithering on-and-off, Ford finally decided to launch Bronco when Wrangler looked most vulnerable. If you look at Bronco’s propositioning, it seeks to keep luring Jeep farther down the path of daily comfort and convenience, less so chase it down the off-road trails.

And Jeep has apparently bit the bait. The problem is that this leads down to a crowded field, just when Jeep buyers are less loyal and have more options than ever.

After FCA spent an entire decade putting all its eggs in Jeep, I wonder what Stellantis’s Plan B is going to be.

Your analysis paints rather a bleak outlook for Jeep, but the "swinging geniuses" at the former FCA have nobody to blame but themselves!
To me, this leaves Jeep in possibly its most vulnerable position....perhaps...EVER!. And, this doesn't even count the Scout brand being revived by VAG.

At this point, CT is going to need the patience of The Old Testament's Job (not to mention grit and determination)....to dig Ma STLA out of all the hot steaming piles of.....well....you know...left behind by FCA. It's a bit like a battlefield littered with land mines, isn't it?

 

[Genciu]

My dealer is overstocked with overland and summit models and can not get Laredo or limited models. Yet the lesser models have $3500 rebates and only $1000 on top models. My salesman is frustrated.

 

[vBD]

Hey this IS the endgame ie recession(?!) They have the margins pecisely so as to get through it to victory ie FINANCIAL survival/profitability with no net debt IN and THROUGH this the economic and business cycle that began in 2008/9. It will take rebates+cost cutting+cheaper financing+inventory reduction+layoffs etc. SAME is true of every other firm...except that unlike stellantis most cannot afford to financially since.....their breakeven points are not as low BY DESIGN as stellantis'. 30-40% of sales. They'd only be dead again if they also still had say a dart chrysler 200 journey cherokee etc to support through a more or less certain and predictable sales and financial recession. Managing for survival and earnings "...in and through the cycle..." Marchionne said. Well here is the endgame of the cycle. So let's see....

 

[Adventurer55]

NA operations are vulnerable because while they can crow all they want about margins, these tired and old vehicles are needing replaced. And that takes cash. This is stuff that should've been done five years ago or longer.

 

[valiant67]

Hey this IS the endgame ie recession(?!) They have the margins pecisely so as to get through it to victory ie FINANCIAL survival/profitability with no net debt IN and THROUGH this the economic and business cycle that began in 2008/9. It will take rebates+cost cutting+cheaper financing+inventory reduction+layoffs etc. SAME is true of every other firm...except that unlike stellantis most cannot afford to financially since.....their breakeven points are not as low BY DESIGN as stellantis'. 30-40% of sales. They'd only be dead again if they also still had say a dart chrysler 200 journey cherokee etc to support through a more or less certain and predictable sales and financial recession. Managing for survival and earnings "...in and through the cycle..." Marchionne said. Well here is the endgame of the cycle. So let's see....

it’s a pretty localized and self-created recession then. Relying on high cost and high fuel consumption vehicles is exactly the same problem that happened to Chrysler in 1974, 1979, 2008. FCA USA has an inventory buildup most other manufacturers don’t. The warning signs are flashing again.
The idea they can be profitable at 30% of volume is laughable. How many jobs are they going to slash? How many factories closed? I assume most people reacted at that ludicrous statement with laughter because it was that silly rather than quote it as gospel. The high fixed costs just don’t support that.
But then those who don’t understand the market will continue hanging their star on a false prophet.

 

[LouJC]

I don't know what others are seeing but the sales practices of 4 different Chrysler/Jeep dealers in my area with regard to late model used sales are lousy:
no negotiation on price
"discount" if you finance with them, at a too high interest rate
other addons, like "make ready fees" one dealer was adding $2500 for that
to me a lot of bait and switch going on a real turn off

 

[valiant67]

I don't know what others are seeing but the sales practices of 4 different Chrysler/Jeep dealers in my area with regard to late model used sales are lousy:
no negotiation on price
"discount" if you finance with them, at a too high interest rate
other addons, like "make ready fees" one dealer was adding $2500 for that
to me a lot of bait and switch going on a real turn off

Many dealers are still acting like vehicles, new and used, are in short supply. That’s changing rapidly.

 

[LouJC]

I am afraid that would be the home stretch of Norm’s famous Jeep going a slippery slope.

What Jeep ought to do, like Porsche did with 911’s rear engine, is stick to its guns, and take the development of the front solid axle to higher levels of refinement and capability.

Agreed the last thing the Wrangler needs is IFS. Watch vids of the Bronco off road, it is good, but not near the flex of the Wrangler. In fact, watching many vids it isn't much better than a GC Trailhawk. On the Bronco the low mounted alternator (Wrangler's with the V6 is way up high) is bad for water and mud. Saw one lose battery charging in the middle of a trail.
They need to go back to individual suspension/steering components and quit saving a dollar here and a dollar there and make it the best it can be.
For the prices they are asking, there is NO excuse. Make it the best it can be.