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Discussion Starter #21
@Dave Z The Chrysler Grand Caravan hasn't sold any units because it hasn't been available. From what I've seen locally they've JUST started arriving on dealer lots now.

Canadians loved the value aspect of Dodge and Chrysler. The roads are full of Grand Caravans, Journeys, Darts, and Charger SXT's. With those models going into the grave and no replacements being put to the market, CDJR dealers literally have nothing to sell that Canadians want to buy.

All the dealer ads I see tell me they loaded up their lots with 2020 Dodge Grand Caravans while they could. And the discounting definitely took a hit. 2019s were selling new for the mid $20K's, all of a sudden I saw 2020's are being advertised for $35K.
Very true. Value for money was long a key ingredient in Chrysler Corp.’s value proposition. Particularly in Canada.

There’s a lot of good reasons to buy a new Ram or Jeep, but admittedly, value has become much harder to find under FCA.
 

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They screwed up big time by switching the Grand Caravan to Chrysler up here. Dodge is THEE minivan brand up here. All FCA had to do was slap a Durango-like facia on the new Pacifica and rename the S-package: Redline or R/T.
 

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One of FCA's biggest failings has been a failure to understand its customer base.

They may do fine in the EU, but in North America, they have more misses than hits. These Canadian mis-steps are a good example.

It is not like FCA has a lack of knowledgeable people....it just seems it listens to the wrong ones.
 

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Very true. Value for money was long a key ingredient in Chrysler Corp.’s value proposition. Particularly in Canada.

There’s a lot of good reasons to buy a new Ram or Jeep, but admittedly, value has become much harder to find under FCA.
I've been saying this for a long time. The Canadian market is very different than the USA. Other than a few pockets in the GTA and Vancouver, there's not a whole heck of a lot of big money up here. And even people who would be considered middle class don't really dump money into flashy or expensive cars (with a few exceptions). Even in the areas around Winnipeg where you get into the "nicer" houses - you look in the driveways and they've all got 10+ year old beaters parked in front of the house. Culturally, big expensive vehicles are kind of frowned upon here. No one would say it to anyone's face, but you drive by in an Escalade and people aren't jealous - they kinda look at the driver like they're an idiot for wasting their money on such an opulent vehicle. We're more impressed by value - a good deal for your money. And the Journeys and Grand Caravans aren't all CVPs - the most popular trim level is SXT. Again, value for money.

Plus we have long, harsh winters and the road conditions are just as harsh. Salt, sand, and brutal elements put a lot of wear on a vehicle here. You absolutely DO NOT want to be driving a Hellcat around. And very few people in these parts have the means to spend $100K+ on a vehicle that's got to be garaged half the year.

Hyundai/Kia is now the value leader here. Same with Nissan (good lord are there ever a lot of Rogues on the road).

RAM does sell well, however I'd love to see the breakdown of sales between the 1500 and the 1500 Classic. The sales numbers I've seen lump them together. I'll bet the Classic outsells the newer 1500 by about 5 to 1.
 

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Another aspect is the frustrating dealership experience up here. Even when Dodge and Chrysler had more complete line-ups, all the dealers ever carried in stock were V8 Trucks, Higher trim Jeeps, and 50 shades of grey Dodge Minivans. Then, you have to laugh when they are trying to charge Toyota and Honda prices for leftover models in their Fiat Studios.
 

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Another aspect is the frustrating dealership experience up here. Even when Dodge and Chrysler had more complete line-ups, all the dealers ever carried in stock were V8 Trucks, Higher trim Jeeps, and 50 shades of grey Dodge Minivans. Then, you have to laugh when they are trying to charge Toyota and Honda prices for leftover models in their Fiat Studios.
Yep. You were lucky if you could find a Pacifica that wasn't buried deep in their lots for the past 4 years.
 

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Also this perception is why I've always grown up with Dodge being known as the middle class/working person's vehicle. They weren't flashy, but they were solid cars that were affordable for the working man/woman. Basically like Chevy. Yes, they had their sports car models (Viper, all the R/T's) but those were still like the working class hero's cars.

That's why this whole push to turn Dodge into some kind of niche performance lifestyle brand seemed so absurd to me. Dodge/Chrysler were like Ford/Mercury, or Chevy/Buick. With this whole push over the last decade to high dollar Jeeps and trucks, it really feels like a betrayal because it's like FCA has said, "Yeah, we don't care about these customers or markets."
 

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Getting rid of the cheap dodges and chryslers is going to hurt their sales significantly but they knew that going in. Getting rid of low profit margin (yet high sales) models will have them falling well below Kia/Hyundai as far as volume is concerned over time. They have traded in $18,000 Dodge fleet specials for $90,000 Rams, $60,000 Jeeps and $70,000 scat packs.
 

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Getting rid of the cheap dodges and chryslers is going to hurt their sales significantly but they knew that going in. Getting rid of low profit margin (yet high sales) models will have them falling well below Kia/Hyundai as far as volume is concerned over time. They have traded in $18,000 Dodge fleet specials for $90,000 Rams, $60,000 Jeeps and $70,000 scat packs.
Dodge and Chryslers were only "cheap" because they could not sell what customers wanted.....quality, safety and reliability via a courteous dealer network. The sold on styling and performance and rebates. FCA did not address those issues and Jeep is heading the same direction in the largest volume CUV market segments....as the cheap alternative.

Secondly, while the margins look nice on paper, a manufacturer needs volume....and Marchionne abandoned the necessary volume to dress the company up for a merger. Now that the merger is complete, it will fall on Tavares to do the real work of bringing the volume up. He did it with PSA and Opel. He showed that a platform might not be superior on paper, but the market will buy buy competence and reward you with profit.....which is the purpose for being in business.
 

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Dodge and Chryslers were only "cheap" because they could not sell what customers wanted.....quality, safety and reliability via a courteous dealer network. The sold on styling and performance and rebates. FCA did not address those issues and Jeep is heading the same direction in the largest volume CUV market segments....as the cheap alternative.

Secondly, while the margins look nice on paper, a manufacturer needs volume....and Marchionne abandoned the necessary volume to dress the company up for a merger. Now that the merger is complete, it will fall on Tavares to do the real work of bringing the volume up. He did it with PSA and Opel. He showed that a platform might not be superior on paper, but the market will buy buy competence and reward you with profit.....which is the purpose for being in business.
Frankly I'm very concerned for Stellantis if we hit another market crash like 2008. With all the volume leaders gone that leaves them in a very precarious market position if either fuel prices shoot up or economic conditions significantly worsen. Remember how the market fell out of all the large engine gas guzzling (but also very high margin) vehicles like trucks and SUV's?
 

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Frankly I'm very concerned for Stellantis if we hit another market crash like 2008. With all the volume leaders gone that leaves them in a very precarious market position if either fuel prices shoot up or economic conditions significantly worsen. Remember how the market fell out of all the large engine gas guzzling (but also very high margin) vehicles like trucks and SUV's?
Yes, Marchionne's short-sightedness did not secure the company for what is known to be coming....high fuel prices and recessions. Instead, Marchionne chased margins and mergers....customers and company health be-damned. The type of short-term management style that made Exor's portfolio lots of money while ignoring long-term threats.

If fuel prices go up, it will be worse than the last time because the competition is far more prepared.

Lat time fuel prices went up, people gave up their Hemis for 4-cylinder Toyotas that drove like boring appliances, but gave you superior fuel economy. When fuel prices went down, they came back to Hemis.

This time, people will give up their Hemis for a Rav4 Prime and they will not just get a vehicle with Toyota quality, but a well appointed CUV that gets over 90 MPGe and is faster 0-60 than a Porsche Macan....oh, and the RAV4 Prime runs on regular unleaded fuel.

Those customers are not coming back for the Hemi if fuel prices go back down.
 

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What do you mean "if"? I don't know about your area, but we've had a 30 cent/gallon jump in the last few weeks. At one point fuel (87 octane) was $1.99 or so and now it's $2.29 or so. Mid-grade (what I run in my Hemi) went from $2.24 to about $2.53. In our area, fuel prices are nearly back to pre-pandemic levels.
 

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They may be back near pre-pandemic levels, but they are no where near 2008 levels where gas was near $4 across much of the country.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Good overview of Canada and US pickup sales
 
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Front end problems are the 05-10 lx cars...Newer ones dont have that problem...My 300 has 130,000 Miles and zero issues..My brother has a Challenger RT no issues we both drive a lot for work etc..His is a '17 with 85,000 miles and zero issues!
A lot of us regret dumping our old corollas and civics for the chryslers. My 2010 Charger was the newest most expensive car I had bought and within 2 years I missed my 96 Cavalier that I got for free and literally didn't have to fix anything.

My friend finally retired his 2002 Corolla and has spent thousands trying to keep his Nitro on the road. The corolla was free and never broke.

I'm starting to see a pattern here.
Had the popping problem on my 09 Challenger, in 2009. Fix was pretty simple. They unbolted the cradle, and put it back together, tightened everything to specs. No issues since. Over 115,000 miles, mostly highway. Put a new battery in after 9 years.

RAM does sell well, however I'd love to see the breakdown of sales between the 1500 and the 1500 Classic. The sales numbers I've seen lump them together. I'll bet the Classic outsells the newer 1500 by about 5 to 1.
I would believe that in CA and more rural parts of the US. Around here in Indy metro, DTs are everywhere, and it's not exactly easy to tell if a Classic is pre-or post-DT at a glance driving around unless it has dealer new tags.

Frankly I'm very concerned for Stellantis if we hit another market crash like 2008. With all the volume leaders gone that leaves them in a very precarious market position if either fuel prices shoot up or economic conditions significantly worsen. Remember how the market fell out of all the large engine gas guzzling (but also very high margin) vehicles like trucks and SUV's?
I have to agree with you long-term, except in 2020, it had less effect on people who buy expensive cars, since most folks making 6+ figures and many in the high-5 range were still getting a paycheck. Probably more than a few looked at it as an opportunity because maybe there was a bit of an incentive that wasn't there normally, and from a patriotic duty standpoint even. So, in that regard, it was probably less negative to FCA than it would have been if Dodge was selling compact and midsize sedans, with nobody buying. Who knows how long this vaccination operation is going to take to get us out of the other end of the tunnel. Hopefully before the next oncoming train called a collapsing economy smacks us.

Yes, Marchionne's short-sightedness did not secure the company for what is known to be coming....high fuel prices and recessions. Instead, Marchionne chased margins and mergers....customers and company health be-damned. The type of short-term management style that made Exor's portfolio lots of money while ignoring long-term threats.

If fuel prices go up, it will be worse than the last time because the competition is far more prepared.

Lat time fuel prices went up, people gave up their Hemis for 4-cylinder Toyotas that drove like boring appliances, but gave you superior fuel economy. When fuel prices went down, they came back to Hemis.

This time, people will give up their Hemis for a Rav4 Prime and they will not just get a vehicle with Toyota quality, but a well appointed CUV that gets over 90 MPGe and is faster 0-60 than a Porsche Macan....oh, and the RAV4 Prime runs on regular unleaded fuel.

Those customers are not coming back for the Hemi if fuel prices go back down.
I'm not planning on selling mine, as it's not a day driver, but considering how much fuel you can buy with the money you spend on a new car, I would argue some folks should just pay the fuel bill in the meantime.
 
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