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Your free to have your Opinion, the styling is not why it failed. That styling language is on its more successful product. Professional that asses that market came to different conclusion then you personal feelings. It failed along with the entire category.
Are these the same “professionals” who thought the new GTO or the new T-Bird would sell. LOL
 
Are these the same “professionals” who thought the new GTO or the new T-Bird would sell. LOL
Yeah, they are the same professionals that thought the 200 was a good investment, and the same to tool up a over capacity in Sedans in the entire NA market... But like many on this sight, at the time still fail to see how a entire category of vehicle was failing. They were the same professionals that authorized the capital on the Continental, still not understanding what was and now has happened. But let us make 2 things that are clear and true. It is much easier to fail then to succeed. It is much easier to audit a failure then to predict it. So yeah these profession have audited it because if you don't you repeat your error. To think that it is styling in light of similar products succeeding with a similar styling, and account a failure to that, when a entirely category it belongs is in a free fall? Would be poor problem solving logic. Fortunately FCAs professions are unwilling to repeat the mistake Ford made, no matter what one here might think, and authorize a similar investment on similar product no matter the size...… All have zero to do with Pony cars.
 
Discussion starter · #63 ·
I do just have to toss in the famed Lido... these are not complete lists!

Success:
Mustang, new Chrysler convertibles, minivans

Failure:
TC by Maserati, Y-body Imperial, Executive, Limousine, all those “Shelby” cars (from a financial point of view)

So, yes, everyone makes mistakes...
 
I do just have to toss in the famed Lido... these are not complete lists!

Success:
Mustang, new Chrysler convertibles, minivans

Failure:
TC by Maserati, Y-body Imperial, Executive, Limousine, all those “Shelby” cars (from a financial point of view)

So, yes, everyone makes mistakes...
EVERYONE.... some fail because of them …… Others the best, Learn from them and grow even more than from their successes.
 
Actually the whole K-car and most of it's derivatives have served Chrysler well. I have owned two cars I have really enjoyed, one was a 1966 Shelby GT350, the other was my 1985 Lebaron convertible. In both cases, Lee Iaccoca and Carroll Shelby were involved in them in some way. The GT350 is self explanatory, the convertible had the Shelby designed turboII engine and 1987 only manifold. Engine survived the car being totaled in Feb 2009, it is currently residing in a 1986 Lebaron convertible that I am redoing for another "sleeper".
 
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Let’s not forget that some vehicles fail not because they were a poor idea, they failed because of poor execution. Or poor support. There’s any number of reasons why something can succeed, and likewise any number of reasons why it can fail. If it were easy to succeed, everyone would be doing it all the time.
 
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But have to be careful in assign why thing are Failures vs just flawed. Products can be flawed and succeed. While other will fail simply because what they are is no longer in Demand. In that case the flaw is structural to it very form. I could have a broken toe and a plugged artery. Nothing changes that the toe is broken and it certainly is, but it would not be the reason for death. 200 was a example of that and now the Lincoln.... the flaws matter little beyond there basic form.
 
But have to be careful in assign why thing are Failures vs just flawed. Products can be flawed and succeed. While other will fail simply because what they are is no longer in Demand. In that case the flaw is structural to it very form. I could have a broken toe and a plugged artery. Nothing changes that the toe is broken and it certainly is, but it would not be the reason for death. 200 was a example of that and now the Lincoln.... the flaws matter little beyond there basic form.
Well, technically a broken toe could lead to osteomylitis (bone infection) which can lead to sepsis which can kill you. Sorry, medical nerd alert. :p

But you are correct. A flawed product can certainly succeed as well as a perfect product can fail if on the market at the wrong time. Sometimes success or failure is determined through hindsight, when all the dust settles and everyone gets to dig into all the details. Monday morning quarterbacking is an olympic sport! :D
 
I do just have to toss in the famed Lido... these are not complete lists!

Success:
Mustang, new Chrysler convertibles, minivans

Failure:
TC by Maserati, Y-body Imperial, Executive, Limousine, all those “Shelby” cars (from a financial point of view)

So, yes, everyone makes mistakes...
I'll add a third list. Things he got credit for that he initially resisted:
Viper, LH car, Neon
 
Actually the whole K-car and most of it's derivatives have served Chrysler well. I have owned two cars I have really enjoyed, one was a 1966 Shelby GT350, the other was my 1985 Lebaron convertible. In both cases, Lee Iaccoca and Carroll Shelby were involved in them in some way. The GT350 is self explanatory, the convertible had the Shelby designed turboII engine and 1987 only manifold. Engine survived the car being totaled in Feb 2009, it is currently residing in a 1986 Lebaron convertible that I am redoing for another "sleeper".
Nice! Bet you wish you still had the Shelby :)
 
Nice! Bet you wish you still had the Shelby :)
It was sold because I had three kids and needed the money, my late wife had to leave the night I sold it and came back later. I had given her the engagement ring in it. I do know where it is and who owns it now. The car was originally purchased in Germany, sold to a man in Suffolk, who sold it to me, I kept it 11 years, from 1970-1981. It went to Pennsylvania, then ultimately to California where the current owner bought it and it is now in Sydney Australia. This is a real Mustang.
Land vehicle Vehicle Car Muscle car Coupé
 
Beautiful car and a very interesting story. Amazing how become a parent changes so much of your priorities. I had a 66 Mustang back in the 80's but it was only a Shelby in my dreams.
 
The original T-115 minivans were flawed and yet they were huge sales successes. The flaw in the first few years was the drivetrain. The 2.6 and 3 speed combo struggled to get out of the teens for fuel economy. Fuel injection transformed the efficiency quotient, despite the lack of power in the four cylinders.

When the LX cars were still on the drawing boards (around 2001), the popular SUVs were thirsty things and the non-Jeep best sellers had ponderous handling. At that same time sporty cars like the Mustang and Camaro weren't quite all seasons drives.

Nearly two decades later, everything is overturned. Ram offers pickups with minivan fuel economy numbers, Challenger and Chargers offer AWD, and Cherokee and Compass use the similar drivetrain pieces as the Dart and 200. Even at GM, the Chevy Equinox uses drivetrains considered fantasy for utility vehicles in 2001. The Rams, Jeeps and Equinox are very successful. It just seems the future arrived early and overthrew the established order.
 
Yeah, my eyes are 20/15. That's why I said it's "arguably" the best looking. Looks are subjective. However, there is no way you can call the Camaro "cartoonish". The Camaro is bad ***. It's a sporty and slick looking car. It's a design that looks like it's going 100 MPH when it's parked. It makes the Challenger and Mustang look old.

Would I buy a Camaro? No. All I'm saying is I'm shocked at how low sales are. There is a lot of good about the Camaro and one would think that they'd be selling at least as well as the other two options in the segment.
That's because it is cartoonish in looks and execution
 
Definitely a bit too cartoonish from certain angles but it does have a lot of good body lines as well. Just completely impractical for most as any kind of daily driver. Sit in and drive one, you'll quickly understand.
 
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Discussion starter · #76 ·
I think the lessons are clear, though—

1) People can have both good and bad ideas (Chrysler Limousine vs convertible, Chrysler 200 vs crossover onslaught)

2) When The People decide the form of a car is out of fashion, it’s gonna be really hard to sell.

There's a lot of timing involved. Today, it would be foolhardy to launch a really competitive compact car like the 1995 Neon or 1981 Reliant, because people just don't want them; but a compact crossover would be smart, even if it's not top of class. Back when the Caliber was launched, the opposite was still true. The same car in “crossover” and sedan form was available from Toyota and Chevrolet, and it sold like hotcakes as a sedan, and kinda poorly in crossover trim. Caliber was doomed by its form factor just as Chrysler 200 was.

Not renaming the Chrysler 200 when they launched the new one was, IMHO, a major error. I would have either gone back to Sebring and highlighted the improvements, or chosen a classic name such as Newport. That said, the rear seat access wasn't as big a problem as getting anyone to consider a Chrysler 200 at all, especially when people had a choice of Camry and Accord (or Mazda5 for those who want to be different) anyway. Consumer Reports was not going to recommend a Chrysler when you could have a Toyota or Honda... I fear that's part of the Malibu and Fusion issue, too.

Old Chrysler management tried to match the most popular cars of the day, one to one, and failed dismally. When they struck off on their own, they succeeded wildly. I think SM or his minions might have had some chats with museum curators...

History also teaches us that it doesn't matter if you make the highest performance car, as long as most people think you do...
 
Camaro is arguably the best looking?!?!?! I suppose if your a 14 year old ……… it cartoonish in my opinion and both Mustang and Camaro are too small too be useful. It might be a better track car but face it track car market is small, most people need a car that can be driven daily also and Challenger is of the 3 the best daily driver by far.
They really went the wrong way in styling for 2019 with the Camaro.

Land vehicle Vehicle Car Chevrolet camaro Motor vehicle
Land vehicle Vehicle Car Motor vehicle Automotive design


Mike
 
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