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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Bob Lincoln said:
You would remove it to test it. But you can probably leave the electrical connector plugged in and use your pump on the vacuum port.

A code 32 can be triggered by a perfectly functioning EGR valve, if the orifice under it gets clogged shut with carbon buildup. This is a common problem on Toyota 4-cylinder engines with high mileage. The carbon hardens so much that it has to be drilled and scraped out, not just dissolve with carb cleaner. If the idle does not change or stumble when you lift the EGR stem up with a pair of needlenose pliers, the orifice is plugged.

Note that this situation does not cause any poor operation, just the code.
I meant, the end of it is pretty large. I don't know how I would manage to connect something to the end of it, but I will figure something out.

I manually actuated the EGR at idle with my hand vacuum pump. It caused the engine to stall out immediately before the diaphragm in the EGR opened all the way. I kept vacuum applied for about 1 minute to confirm that there were no leaks in the EGR. Also, when I replaced it, I looked into the passage. xcept for a minor coating of carbon inside, the passage was clear. Which is why I am so confused as to why it keeps setting the EGR code. :frusty:
 

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The code is actually defined as 'no change in air/fuel mixture when EGR actuated'. That leaves everything in the path from computer to O2 sensor and back as a suspect. What the computer does is energize the EGR solenoid, which actuates the transducer, which actuates the EGR valve stem, and changes the mixture. The O2 sensor sends back a change in signal and the computer acknowledges it. If the O2 sensor does not sense a change, the code 32 is tripped. So any of the above items could be the broken link. I'd look carefully at electrical connections next. If the car runs OK when warm, I would not suspect the O2 sensor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I checked all connections and plugs today related to the computers, EGR, and O2 sensor, and discovered nothing out of the ordinary. However, when I got the car in Aug. of last year, I had a code 51. I figured I would reset all of my codes out when I got it. Just in case that someone had made repairs and never erased the codes. It hasn't come back. But 32 keeps coming back. I have it come up about once or twice a week. Sometimes go weeks without anything. Then it will come back. It seems to do it more when there is more humidity, such as rainy or snowy conditions.

I have no drivablity issues when warm, none whatsoever. No hesitations, loss of power, stumbling while driving (except once last week) and no loss of gas milage. I get about 22-26MPG depending on how much freeway to city driving I do. I do have a slight fluxiating idle when in gear, +/- 100RPM. Sometimes it does it, sometimes it doesn't. But only when it's warmed up. My idle is at 500RPM in gear, is that out of normal? I don't seem to be able to coast if I let off the brake from a stop and the PCM has let the idles drop that low.
 

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I was re-reading the past EGR thread:
http://www.allpar.com/forums/topic/147169-code-12-and-egr-32-show-up-in-rainy-weather/

What brand EGR did you wind up replacing it with?
I see a Chrysler TSB #18-020-01 stating that a Chrysler part should be used. I have had problems with aftermarket parts. I remember your original part # was 4287646AD. That would be the latest revision.











ANSWER: chrysler has a tsb for that replace the egr use a chrysler one.














NUMBER: 18-020-01
GROUP: Vehicle
Performance
DATE: Aug. 17, 2001



SUBJECT:
Rough Idle, Hard Start, Start & Stall
OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves installing a revised EGR valve.
MODELS:
1995 - 2000 (JA) Breeze/Cirrus/Stratus
1996 - 2000 (JX) Sebring Convertible
NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.5L ENGINE.
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
Vehicle may intermittently exhibit any of the following conditions:
• Rough engine idle.
• Hard start or long crank after hot soak.
• Start and stall when started with cold engine.
• Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0300, Multiple Cylinder Mis-fire.

04287646AC Valve, EGR
 

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500 RPM is low. Should be more like 700 RPM. Has it always been that way since you owned it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
ImperialCrown said:
I was re-reading the past EGR thread:
http://www.allpar.com/forums/topic/147169-code-12-and-egr-32-show-up-in-rainy-weather/

What brand EGR did you wind up replacing it with?
I see a Chrysler TSB #18-020-01 stating that a Chrysler part should be used. I have had problems with aftermarket parts. I remember your original part # was 4287646AD. That would be the latest revision.











ANSWER: chrysler has a tsb for that replace the egr use a chrysler one.














NUMBER: 18-020-01
GROUP: Vehicle
Performance
DATE: Aug. 17, 2001



SUBJECT:
Rough Idle, Hard Start, Start & Stall
OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves installing a revised EGR valve.
MODELS:
1995 - 2000 (JA) Breeze/Cirrus/Stratus
1996 - 2000 (JX) Sebring Convertible
NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 2.5L ENGINE.
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
Vehicle may intermittently exhibit any of the following conditions:
• Rough engine idle.
• Hard start or long crank after hot soak.
• Start and stall when started with cold engine.
• Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0300, Multiple Cylinder Mis-fire.

04287646AC Valve, EGR
I replaced it with an OEM Chrysler part direct from the dealership. It was over $150. Another reason why I am mad the code keeps popping up. All my car problems seem to be hidden and random issues with no logical explanation that requires thousands of dollars in tools to diagnose. Geez. May I ask where you find these service bullitins and whatnot? I've been looking for a shop manual to download online, such as a PDF, and I cannot find one to save my life. I look for TSB information, and it won't give me more than the TSB number when I search online. Won't give the description or resolution of the TSB. It's annoying, as you can imagine.

Bob Lincoln said:
500 RPM is low. Should be more like 700 RPM. Has it always been that way since you owned it?
Yes. It has been. Wanna know something even more piculiar? When I got it, someone had wedged some cardboard between the throttle stop screw and the black stop plate and glued it in place with RTV. The screw had also been bottomed out. I turned it back all the way to where the throttle plate wasn't rubbing inside of the bore itself, removed the RTV, and left it. The idle never changed and the engine still ran, it still sat at 500 rpm in drive, but I didn't like the rig being there. I was hoping that backing the throttle off all the way would allow for the computer to raise the idles higher, but that never happened.

I would like my idle speed where it should be, but since it's DRB-III programmed, I have no idea how to change it. It always has felt too slow for me at idle in drive, and I cannot coast when I let off the brake and turning the steering wheel at idle seems to drop the engine speed towards almost stalling out before the IACV seems to take effect. There is about a 2 second delay before the speed rises from almost stalling when a load is placed on the engine (electrical or mechanical, such as turning the blower on high or turning the steering wheel). It takes a few seconds to drop that low also, sitting at a stop for about 30+ seconds and the computer will slowly drop the idle to about 500RPM in drive only, fully warmed up. On other cars I have driven that are FI, I have never had an IACV delay.
 

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Someone messed with that screw, thinking that it's an idle speed screw - it is not. It is an airflow set screw, and there is a special factory procedure for setting it correctly. I have the FSM for 1992 FWD cars, don't know if the procedure will be the same. It does involve driving the AIS pintle to a particular position for the adjustment, with a scan tool. You definitely need to get that straightened out to get the idle speed correct.
 

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Yes, the pintle must be fully seated and a (special tool) bleed orifice pushed onto the PCV hose and allowed to draw ambient air on a fully warmed engine. The 'minimum air' idle speed can then be set.
The DRB III has a menu for setting minimum air. This screw is set at the factory and should never be touched. If minimum air idle can't be reached, there is another problem. Idle is set by the PCM relying on crank sensor speed input and actuating the AIS open or closed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Bob Lincoln said:
Someone messed with that screw, thinking that it's an idle speed screw - it is not. It is an airflow set screw, and there is a special factory procedure for setting it correctly. I have the FSM for 1992 FWD cars, don't know if the procedure will be the same. It does involve driving the AIS pintle to a particular position for the adjustment, with a scan tool. You definitely need to get that straightened out to get the idle speed correct.
I really wish I knew everything that had gone on with this car in the last 18 years since purchase. How is it an airflow set screw if it moves the throttle stop plate? There are external wires not in the harness going to the TCM and throttle body. This is going to be expensive, I will have to call the dealer to have them adjust my idle system. It's way too complicated for someone with no tools it seems, unless there is a "backyard mechanic" method.

ImperialCrown said:
Yes, the pintle must be fully seated and a (special tool) bleed orifice pushed onto the PCV hose and allowed to draw ambient air on a fully warmed engine. The 'minimum air' idle speed can then be set.
The DRB III has a menu for setting minimum air. This screw is set at the factory and should never be touched. If minimum air idle can't be reached, there is another problem. Idle is set by the PCM relying on crank sensor speed input and actuating the AIS open or closed.
How would I go about testing the crank sensor. I should just get the CD service manual from the dealer for $90, I would get all the testing procedures for the sensors, but I am sure it wouldn't come with ANY TSB's and I have no access to those.
 

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If your car starts and runs and can drive the tach, then I think that the crank sensor is OK. It just reads the shutters in the flex plate as they whizz by.
Obviously someone has added wiring overlays to try and fix the PCM/TCM electrical issues. It would be nice to get it all back to where it was originally and start correctly from the beginning. Many times people introduce more problems than they started out with by adding wiring patches and splices.
Minimum air is a physical starting point for the EFI system as the PCM is in charge of setting the correct idle speed. The AIS regulates this by PCM control. The AIS is never fully closed at idle as you always some speed adjustment up or down as needed.
A service manual with wiring diagrams would no doubt help you out here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Yes, my tach works. It dropped off like twice the entire time I owned it. But I figured that would be a loose solder connection inside the gauge cluster.

It would be nice to have the wiring harness back to OEM, it would be easier to solve issues, knowing that it hasn't been messed with. I talked to parts about an engine bay wiring harness, it was almost $1,000! I do not know what the part number is, so I cannot search for it.

Sorry for the delayed replies, I have been doing intake manifold gaskets on a Chevrolet 5.7 big block. Plastic piceces of crap... In other news, my car is now dying while driving. It misfires and surges while driving, and then it has died twice the past 3 days since we last posted on this discussion whole driving. Checked MAP sensor and readings were similar to that of the TPS. No random spikes and smooth voltage incline throughout the vacuum increasing. It holds vacuum too. I have a feeling I may be looking at a stupid distributor replacement. No codes besides 32 since the reset.
 

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I would want the wiring harness verified and back to factory spec before considering anything else, unless you can prove the component bad. I don't know what the previous owner was trying to fix, but it might be what you are up against now. When it does stall is when you need to get under the hood and see what is missing.
Diagnosis and repair could only be easier with the FSM with the wiring diagrams and the 2.5L Powertrain Diagnostic Procedures book.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-Dodge-Stratus-Chrysler-Cirrus-Service-Manual-95-/120731745740?pt=Motors_Manuals_Literature&vxp=mtr&hash=item1c1c2c3dcc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-DODGE-2-5L-EFI-POWERTRAIN-DIAGNOSTICS-MANUAL-/271028480484?pt=Motors_Manuals_Literature&hash=item3f1a8e69e4&vxp=mtr

If a dealer were to look at the car they would want the wiring repaired first as well. They have a Co-Pilot data recorder that could look at everything the PCM was seeing at the moment of stall or EGR failure to get an idea where to start. You could make 3 separate recordings that would be analyzed back at the shop for an estimate.
If it has already been at the dealer for the stalling issue, they may waive the diagnostic fee this time if you have already paid it. With the wiring repaired, it would start to look like a PCM or distributor?
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Unfortunately, I only took it into the dealer for the TCM failure back in August. I did report that the car idles low and I couldn't coast in the complaint section along with "Limp Mode Home", but they blamed the car "Being stuck in second gear" as the problem. But it happened even when the car was intermittently working well, too. It would only go in limp mode when the car was cold. After warm up, it was fine. The TCM reported code 41 and that the transmission was stuck in 2nd. They replaced the TCM after a week of diagnostics, and it took another week to replace. The repair was $460. $50 diagnostic fee waived since I had them fix the car. They service writer came to me and asked me how long I had owned the car, and told me I had basically been ripped off. Saying that there weren't OEM chrysler parts in it, and that the wiring harness had been rigged and that I may have to consider a wiring harness. When they wanted to reolace the TCM, they said the wiring now seemed fine to them, even though it was screwed up. The distributor is NOT OEM, and I don't blame the orevious owner for not getting OEM. The damn things are the cost of 3 average car payments at $800+. Sadly, I may have to pay the price of non OEM.

It looks like I should go in and have them diagnose the vehicle though, huh? I do not possess any of these tools, obviously. Hopefully they would take their time finding the issue, waiting until the car started stumbling. It only stalls when it stumbles. And it stumbles when warm ONLY after some sort of hard acceleration, but not WOT. I've never floored this engine lol. To me, it sounds like the EGR being stuck. But since I replaced that assembly with an OEM part, what are the chances of it being a bad part? Or on the electrical end, not all the commands being successfully sent to the transducer, and it being stuck on full engagement?

On the engine wiring harness, is there a part number anyone has that I can have to search up a replacement? Or would I be fine taking the harness out of the car, tearing into it, and replacing any bad wiring, keeping the wire color in mind? I would probably go for a higher gauge too, if I rebuilt harness myself, if it's recommended/ possible with the design of the plug pins.
 

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95chryslercirrus said:
Unfortunately, I only took it into the dealer for the TCM failure back in August. I did report that the car idles low and I couldn't coast in the complaint section along with "Limp Mode Home", but they blamed the car "Being stuck in second gear" as the problem. But it happened even when the car was intermittently working well, too. It would only go in limp mode when the car was cold. After warm up, it was fine. The TCM reported code 41 and that the transmission was stuck in 2nd. They replaced the TCM after a week of diagnostics, and it took another week to replace. The repair was $460. $50 diagnostic fee waived since I had them fix the car. They service writer came to me and asked me how long I had owned the car, and told me I had basically been ripped off. Saying that there weren't OEM chrysler parts in it, and that the wiring harness had been rigged and that I may have to consider a wiring harness. When they wanted to reolace the TCM, they said the wiring now seemed fine to them, even though it was screwed up. The distributor is NOT OEM, and I don't blame the orevious owner for not getting OEM. The damn things are the cost of 3 average car payments at $800+. Sadly, I may have to pay the price of non OEM.

It looks like I should go in and have them diagnose the vehicle though, huh? I do not possess any of these tools, obviously. Hopefully they would take their time finding the issue, waiting until the car started stumbling. It only stalls when it stumbles. And it stumbles when warm ONLY after some sort of hard acceleration, but not WOT. I've never floored this engine lol. To me, it sounds like the EGR being stuck. But since I replaced that assembly with an OEM part, what are the chances of it being a bad part? Or on the electrical end, not all the commands being successfully sent to the transducer, and it being stuck on full engagement?

On the engine wiring harness, is there a part number anyone has that I can have to search up a replacement? Or would I be fine taking the harness out of the car, tearing into it, and replacing any bad wiring, keeping the wire color in mind? I would probably go for a higher gauge too, if I rebuilt harness myself, if it's recommended/ possible with the design of the plug pins.
now Here's where Chrysler was Smart; they made the Engine Harness COMPLETELY Modular; and the Part number I'm about to give you is for the 1998 2.5 V6 without Heated Seats, (I tried the '95 Part number, only for it to be invalid) its 4608561, but I have to Warn you, Its EXPENSIVE. a MUCH Cheaper Alternative is to find a Wiring Harness at a salvage Yard, and go through it with a Fine Toothed Comb, much Like I had to when I had Problems with my own Breeze's 2.0L Engine Harness (a lot of the Connectors were busted from age and Oil Contamination, and my old harness had a few problems in the Upstream O2 wiring)

I checked EVERY Pinout on my "New" Harness for Continuity from the PCM Connection to EVERY Pinout on the rest of the Harness, rewrapped the Flexible Loom Splices with new Electrical Tape, as well as replaced any broken sections of Flexible Loom with Pieces from my old harness, and replaced any broken connectors with Salvaged ones. after I finished with it, the Harness looked almost Brand New! if you decide to do what I did, be VERY Patient.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
digitalrailroader said:
now Here's where Chrysler was Smart; they made the Engine Harness COMPLETELY Modular; and the Part number I'm about to give you is for the 1998 2.5 V6 without Heated Seats, (I tried the '95 Part number, only for it to be invalid) its 4608561, but I have to Warn you, Its EXPENSIVE. a MUCH Cheaper Alternative is to find a Wiring Harness at a salvage Yard, and go through it with a Fine Toothed Comb, much Like I had to when I had Problems with my own Breeze's 2.0L Engine Harness (a lot of the Connectors were busted from age and Oil Contamination, and my old harness had a few problems in the Upstream O2 wiring)

I checked EVERY Pinout on my "New" Harness for Continuity from the PCM Connection to EVERY Pinout on the rest of the Harness, rewrapped the Flexible Loom Splices with new Electrical Tape, as well as replaced any broken sections of Flexible Loom with Pieces from my old harness, and replaced any broken connectors with Salvaged ones. after I finished with it, the Harness looked almost Brand New! if you decide to do what I did, be VERY Patient.
It's the LX model, I do not have leather heated seats. It would be nice though, however I heard the leather quality in the Cirrus was questionable.

That is very smart of them indeed, however, what is necessary to remove the harness? You said heated seats, so would I need to tear into the cab to get the harness out? How extensively are they connected? Is it all the same harness that connects to the PCM, ABS, and TCM? Or are they all separate?

That's actually half of what I was quoted at the dealership. The parts guy said $1,050 or something like that after tax. Still too expensive, I would rather do your method. Get a donor and start getting it back to OEM spec.

It is amazing what under hood conditions can do to something that never moves, the wiring harness. The heat and all the fluids/oils. I would do well to cover it well after repair. Such as the black plastic insulation covering. I also want to redo the engine and body grounds. The less resistance, the better. They seem kind of small to be carrying large amounts of current.
 

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95chryslercirrus said:
It's the LX model, I do not have leather heated seats. It would be nice though, however I heard the leather quality in the Cirrus was questionable.

That is very smart of them indeed, however, what is necessary to remove the harness? You said heated seats, so would I need to tear into the cab to get the harness out? How extensively are they connected? Is it all the same harness that connects to the PCM, ABS, and TCM? Or are they all separate?

That's actually half of what I was quoted at the dealership. The parts guy said $1,050 or something like that after tax. Still too expensive, I would rather do your method. Get a donor and start getting it back to OEM spec.

It is amazing what under hood conditions can do to something that never moves, the wiring harness. The heat and all the fluids/oils. I would do well to cover it well after repair. Such as the black plastic insulation covering. I also want to redo the engine and body grounds. The less resistance, the better. They seem kind of small to be carrying large amounts of current.
since you don't have Heated Seats, removing the Engine Harness is Straightforward: simply disconnect every connector you can see directly attached to the engine.



the harness should look a little bit like this when its out of the car. (this is my 2.0L Engine Harness.)



I've made this little Guide to help you Identify the various Connectors that have to be disconnected to remove the Harness from the car. Hope this Helps!
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Priceless information! The service manual would never give that much detail into it I am sure, and in color lol. Thanks! Will post back with results, and will take it all out next week. It's snowing here again...
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
It rained really hard here the other day, and I discovered that my air box (if that's what you call it) under the dash for the heater/AC blower assembly has been filling up with water and the motor is pumping it around. Even though the AC drain hose isn't plugged, the water still won't drain out. I figured while I was doing the wiring harness, I'd remove the dash for explorative surgery. I hope to remove the box, take it apart, clean it out, clean the heater core and evaporator fins, fix the leak in the hood cowl, and hopefully reassemble without any broken parts. What does it take to remove the dashboard and get to the box? Can the box be taken out of the car with the AC still charged and the evaporator left in the car? What about the air bags? Thanks!
 

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The problem may be in the cowl under the wipers with left and right side plugged cowl drain into the front fenders if you park near any trees. The HVAC box may be fine, but tree debris can also enter inside and plug the exit before the drain hose. By flipping down the glove box door and gently pulling open the rectangular rubber evap temp probe grommet, you can take a look inside. Don't tug on the delicate probe wires.
If you are going to disassemble the dash for the first time, you better have a FSM to answer all your questions. The A/C has to be reclaimed and the coolant drained. It is a big job.
 

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If the car has sat for a month or so at any time, mice could have nested in the airbox. I bought a used car that had the A/C evaporator blocked with underhood insulation. I opened the airbox at the fan and reached in and pulled out hunks, then combed the fins. If this happened to you, insulation or other nest debris could be blocking the drain pipe.
 
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