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"I see that all these brands, without exception, have one thing in common: they have a fabulous history," Tavares said. "We love the history of car brands, it gives us a foundation on which we can project ourselves into the future. So today, I don't see any need, if this deal is concluded, to remove brands because they all have their history and they all have their strengths." - Carlos Tavares
 

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The speculation, the rumors, the belief that product is coming for either Dodge or Chrysler. There have been so many vehicles that are anticipated to be coming and they have all quietly vanished. Even the Charger/Challenger replacements got pushed back again (to 2023 now). The "insiders" have all been silent for quite some time now. Yet Jeep and Ram keep churning out new and replacement vehicles. It's been clear where the direction has been going for several years and I'm of the belief that neither the Dodge or Chrysler brands are strong enough as they currently stand (zero product or aged unupdated product in nearly all segments) to survive the merger. If the new FCA/PSA board does not specifically say, "We want to resurrect Chrysler and Dodge brands" then they're done.

So I'm done hoping. I'm done having the football yanked away at the last second. I'm done speculating on what future vehicles we will see under the Chrysler or Dodge brands. I'll believe it when I see it.
We all will, but I can't but have hope, given the circumstances and Mr. Tavares's history. Why are you done hoping just now? Things didn't get worse when PSA, who has been chasing FCA (and Mr. Tavares chasing Chrysler) for some time, caught FCA and came to an agreement. Mr. Tavares has be unequivocal about maintaining brands. If Chrysler and Dodge are dead, why has FCA been keeping them alive, and in Dodge's case, heavily advertising their mainstays: muscle?
 
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If SM didn’t feel the need to shutter brands during the long slog towards net-debt-zero, when the cost savings of eliminating failing brands would probably have been very helpful, I don’t really see Mr Tavares shutting them down now either. Maybe the FCA side can finally get out of the never-ending crisis mode and the less successful brands can flourish. That’s what I’m hoping for, and I think there’s a good chance that can happen.

I see so many comments about the past, in this thread and others. This isn’t about the past, it’s about where they go from here. FCA isn’t saddled with the ghosts of Chrysler past. Many of the people who were in charge during those days are long gone now. Let’s let them stay where they are.
 

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I hope that is true. I know they will say what they need to say to not cause alarm to begin with... but a few years down the road who knows what they will do.
TBH, THEY probably don't yet know what they will do in a few years.
 

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We all will, but I can't but have hope, given the circumstances and Mr. Tavares's history. Why are you done hoping just now? Things didn't get worse when PSA, who has been chasing FCA (and Mr. Tavares chasing Chrysler) for some time, caught FCA and came to an agreement. Mr. Tavares has be unequivocal about maintaining brands. If Chrysler and Dodge are dead, why has FCA been keeping them alive, and in Dodge's case, heavily advertising their mainstays: muscle?
Chrysler and Dodge are still alive because all remaining product are cash cows. With the exception of Pacifica they are all vehicles which began life under DaimlerChrysler or Cerberus. The development cost has been amortized and paid off long ago so the margins are actually quite high given how they can just keep pumping them out while investing nothing. Every automaker has moved toward CUV in all segments and Dodge and Chrysler have zero invested in those markets. Journey is so outdated it's a joke and they've cut the 2020 trims down to only the markets targeted to sub prime buyers (aka cheap).

And as much as we think of Charger and Challenger as performance cars, they are still on an ancient architecture and I'd love how many SXTs sell vs SRTs. And a pair of expensive toy cars does not an entire brand make. How can Dodge be a performance brand when over 50% of its sales are Durango, Grand Caravan, and Journey?

Basically I see one brand as a minivan and the other as two full size dinosaur sedans. I dont exactly know how either of those things is supposed to play out long term when it comes to product investment and marketing.
 

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"I see that all these brands, without exception, have one thing in common: they have a fabulous history," Tavares said. "We love the history of car brands, it gives us a foundation on which we can project ourselves into the future. So today, I don't see any need, if this deal is concluded, to remove brands because they all have their history and they all have their strengths." - Carlos Tavares
And in 2016 Sergio stated how the 200 was part of the future and that the car, "still has a lot of life in it" just 4 months before they killed the entire thing.
 

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And in 2016 Sergio stated how the 200 was part of the future and that the car, "still has a lot of life in it" just 4 months before they killed the entire thing.
Time passes, weather changes, s(tuff) happens. We've covered why 200 and Dart died their untimely death.

Meanwhile, the guy who turned PSA and Opel around is to be the head of the new PSA+FCA. Maybe instead of all this defeatist talk about what may happen that none of us really know, just sit back and see what really happens? Or you can keep catastrophizing based on what Daimler and Cerberus did, and what FCA didn't do.
 

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Time passes, weather changes, s(tuff) happens. We've covered why 200 and Dart died their untimely death.

Meanwhile, the guy who turned PSA and Opel around is to be the head of the new PSA+FCA. Maybe instead of all this defeatist talk about what may happen that none of us really know, just sit back and see what really happens? Or you can keep catastrophizing based on what Daimler and Cerberus did, and what FCA didn't do.
Chrysler does seem to get the leaders it needs just before (or after) corporate death.
 

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Time passes, weather changes, s(tuff) happens. We've covered why 200 and Dart died their untimely death.

Meanwhile, the guy who turned PSA and Opel around is to be the head of the new PSA+FCA. Maybe instead of all this defeatist talk about what may happen that none of us really know, just sit back and see what really happens? Or you can keep catastrophizing based on what Daimler and Cerberus did, and what FCA didn't do.
Yes we know why 200 was axed. My point is that business executive's words aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
 

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Yes we know why 200 was axed. My point is that business executive's words aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
That's debatable, especially given Mr. Tavares' record with PSA. People have been declaring the imminent demise or sale of Chrysler and/or Dodge since at least the Cerberus debacle, yet, they're still alive, whatever their health status.

Here's some food for thought on how a Chrysler, Dodge, or perhaps Lancia product fits into the PSA modular platform structure, but isn't a badge engineering process. EMP2 is the PSA compact/mid-size platform.

Modularity and flexibility for large scope of applications and brand differentiation

Thanks to the high level of modularity combined with a variety of chassis parameters, many model variants are possible. EMP2 in particular offers a huge bandwidth that can be explored:

  • four different track widths,
  • five different wheelbases,
  • two different cockpit architectures,
  • two rear axle architectures,
  • several rear vehicle modules for various versions (short, long, five or seven-seater, single seats or rear bench, combustion engine or hybrid)
  • and up to six different rear vehicle assemblies, which can be produced on the same assembly line.


In addition to the possibility of combining the various elements, EMP2 also provides each individual Groupe PSA brand the option of personalising every car so that it perfectly matches the respective brand. This flexibility ensures that an Opel or a Vauxhall model is distinctively different to a sister model (Peugeot, Citroën or DS Automobiles).

Source Rüsselsheim R&D Center at the heart of Groupe PSA's technology - Groupe PSA (at https://www.groupe-psa.com/en/newsroom/brand/russelsheim-rd-center-at-the-heart-of-groupe-psas-technology/ )
 

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That's debatable, especially given Mr. Tavares' record with PSA. People have been declaring the imminent demise or sale of Chrysler and/or Dodge since at least the Cerberus debacle, yet, they're still alive, whatever their health status.

Here's some food for thought on how a Chrysler, Dodge, or perhaps Lancia product fits into the PSA modular platform structure, but isn't a badge engineering process. EMP2 is the PSA compact/mid-size platform.

Modularity and flexibility for large scope of applications and brand differentiation

Thanks to the high level of modularity combined with a variety of chassis parameters, many model variants are possible. EMP2 in particular offers a huge bandwidth that can be explored:

  • four different track widths,
  • five different wheelbases,
  • two different cockpit architectures,
  • two rear axle architectures,
  • several rear vehicle modules for various versions (short, long, five or seven-seater, single seats or rear bench, combustion engine or hybrid)
  • and up to six different rear vehicle assemblies, which can be produced on the same assembly line.


In addition to the possibility of combining the various elements, EMP2 also provides each individual Groupe PSA brand the option of personalising every car so that it perfectly matches the respective brand. This flexibility ensures that an Opel or a Vauxhall model is distinctively different to a sister model (Peugeot, Citroën or DS Automobiles).

Source Rüsselsheim R&D Center at the heart of Groupe PSA's technology - Groupe PSA (at https://www.groupe-psa.com/en/newsroom/brand/russelsheim-rd-center-at-the-heart-of-groupe-psas-technology/ )

FCA has had platforms and architecture available for the entire time. Why is there no Dodge/Chrysler CUV variant on the Renegade/Compass/500X? Why is there no Dodge/Chrysler CUV variant of the CUSW compact or mid-size (Cherokee/200/Dart)? Why has the only CUV in Journey not been touched for 9 years?

There's never been a lack of tech or resources available to fill these holes in the product line. What is missing is the corporate will to continue to build or even maintain these brands.

Again, I will believe it when I see product unveilings. Not before.
 

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FCA has had platforms and architecture available for the entire time. Why is there no Dodge/Chrysler CUV variant on the Renegade/Compass/500X? Why is there no Dodge/Chrysler CUV variant of the CUSW compact or mid-size (Cherokee/200/Dart)? Why has the only CUV in Journey not been touched for 9 years?

There's never been a lack of tech or resources available to fill these holes in the product line. What is missing is the corporate will to continue to build or even maintain these brands.

Again, I will believe it when I see product unveilings. Not before.
Both of those options would cannibalize Jeep and result in compromised vehicles that don't fall in line with the Dodge performance image under the Dodge brand. Under Chrysler, they'd be a pretty good option. The 500X should have been a Chrysler from the start in the US. The limited Fiat dealer network isn't going to produce any kind of volume, no matter how good the vehicle is.
 

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Yup, but the 500X was not ready for the US market when first launched. Really, should have been sold solely as a Renegade. 500L, delayed a year or two and revised, maybe could have been a Chrysler. The Chrysler 100 ("Renegade sedan") was considered but the market went away. Remember, 500X was modified to help make the Renegade more credible... FCA really didn't have the resources to do the job right. Still doesn't! To make something a credible Jeep, it can't be a good Dodge. To make something a credible Dodge, it might or might not be good as a Chrysler, but to sell both, you really need to do more than minor work...

Thus the idea of pairing Alfa and Dodge, Chrysler and Lancia, which didn't work for the same reasons.
 

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Both of those options would cannibalize Jeep and result in compromised vehicles that don't fall in line with the Dodge performance image under the Dodge brand. Under Chrysler, they'd be a pretty good option. The 500X should have been a Chrysler from the start in the US. The limited Fiat dealer network isn't going to produce any kind of volume, no matter how good the vehicle is.
Dodge "performance" but over half their sales are vehicles that are people movers (Journey, Grand Caravan, Durango).

So if Jeep is already established as the FCA CUV offering then why does Chrysler brand need to exist? "Sedan market is dead." Ok fine, then when they cut Dart and 200 why weren't there CUV variants ready to take their place in the expanding CUV segment? Oh wait, but there were except they're Jeeps. Why was money dumped into trying to make Fiat happen in North America all while their core brands in Dodge and Chrysler were left to whither?

Unless there's a massive shift in direction from the top I don't see these brands continuing beyond their current models. Any new product would be several years out as they'd have to start development basically now.
 

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Dodge "performance" but over half their sales are vehicles that are people movers (Journey, Grand Caravan, Durango).

So if Jeep is already established as the FCA CUV offering then why does Chrysler brand need to exist? "Sedan market is dead." Ok fine, then when they cut Dart and 200 why weren't there CUV variants ready to take their place in the expanding CUV segment? Oh wait, but there were except they're Jeeps. Why was money dumped into trying to make Fiat happen in North America all while their core brands in Dodge and Chrysler were left to whither?

Unless there's a massive shift in direction from the top I don't see these brands continuing beyond their current models. Any new product would be several years out as they'd have to start development basically now.
Chrysler still exists because it would cost FCA more to shut it down than to just let things run without additional investment.
 

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Dodge "performance" but over half their sales are vehicles that are people movers (Journey, Grand Caravan, Durango).
That's hardly a fair point. The Durango is marketed as a performance SUV while the Journey and Grand Caravan are selling based on their inexpensive price, not because they are somehow exceptional vehicles. Redesign the Journey and Grand Caravan and sales will drop because the price will increase above that of the current ancient models. Sales are going drop no matter where they go beyond the Journey and Grand Caravan, so they're trying to ensure profitability by becoming a margin-based brand, not volume-based.

Unless there's a massive shift in direction from the top I don't see these brands continuing beyond their current models. Any new product would be several years out as they'd have to start development basically now.
Sure, if you completely ignore the vehicles that are currently in development.
 

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Dodge "performance" but over half their sales are vehicles that are people movers (Journey, Grand Caravan, Durango).

So if Jeep is already established as the FCA CUV offering then why does Chrysler brand need to exist? "Sedan market is dead." Ok fine, then when they cut Dart and 200 why weren't there CUV variants ready to take their place in the expanding CUV segment? Oh wait, but there were except they're Jeeps. Why was money dumped into trying to make Fiat happen in North America all while their core brands in Dodge and Chrysler were left to whither?

Unless there's a massive shift in direction from the top I don't see these brands continuing beyond their current models. Any new product would be several years out as they'd have to start development basically now.
Because Jeep CUVs are overengineered for offroad ability, therefore they are not going to be as pocketbook friendly on fuel due to the added weight and being geared more for offroad and towing capacity. My Daimler-era WK is a perfect example. A Chrysler version of that vehicle with the MB V6 turbodiesel would have been given highway gears and probably gained 2-5 MPGs. The CUVs were not given to Chrysler in the short term to 1. protect Jeep and 2. shore up FCA finances until they were in a better position/merged. Presumably a Chrysler CUV would be Pacifica-based, therefore it could have been on the drawing board awaiting funds and getting updates in the mean time. Well, that's my semi-educated non-auto engineer guess. As for your presumption that C&D are most likely dead brands walking, I don't see the logic in killing off two mainstream brands in the biggest auto market not named China, when you're merging with a French-based automaker who desires a U.S. presence. Way easier for PSA-FCA to fix the U.S. brands than to try to enter the U.S. with one of it's brands cold-turkey. Show the U.S. what you're capable of with existing brands, then bring on Peugeot and Citroën.
 
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But here’s the problem. Would Windsor be profitable without Grand Caravan volume? Unlikely. So volume is needed or profit goes away. Something popular has to take Grand Caravan’s place and Voyager isn’t going to be it.
 
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