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Batteries are a poor way to store energy. I think they should have invested more into hydrogen/natural gas rather than electric. There is plenty of it just like oil. The government and corporations are governing what THEY perceive to be the future and not what the actual consumer wants/needs.
The former ChryCo. had the perfect opportunity back in the 90's, when they had CNG powered minivans running around, and later in 1999....showcased the Dodge Charger Concept Car....presumably to be powered by a CNG 4.7 Litre V8.
Then, a bunch of guys came over from Europe.......and then it all went to $#@&.

P.S.. At the moment, Toyota is working on a Hydrogen fueled Internal Combustion Engine......Just Sayin...;)
 

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Batteries are a poor way to store energy. I think they should have invested more into hydrogen/natural gas rather than electric. There is plenty of it just like oil. The government and corporations are governing what THEY perceive to be the future and not what the actual consumer wants/needs.
Hydrogen has problems that are expensive and difficulty to overcome. It would require a whole new infrastructure architecture to distribute and it would only take a few accidents with high pressure H2 to give the public pause. It also still requires pretty much the same HCBN infrastructure for lubrication given that it's still an internal combustion engine, but does have a relatively clean exhaust, being mostly water. Natural gas is a non-starter! You're still dealing with an even more potent explosive liquified fuel under high pressure. You're still also burning HCBN, which is the problem we have with gasoline. The goal is to cut way back on the production of CO2 which is the main cause of global warming.
 

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As compared to what, and based on what evidence?
Combustion is still the problem related to climate change, and everything you burn produces water vapor (which alters climate) and also oxides of nitrogen, which are a pollutant and cause smog and breathing distress. So, no, not a good source in which to invest. And hydrogen is difficult, expensive and energy-intensive to produce, as well as highly explosive.
Water vapor is not a problem. It's not a cause or source of climate change. Oxides of nitrogen are a problem but can be controlled with proper design. Compressed natural gas is a total non-starter as you are just still burning hydrocarbons, which produce CO2. CNG is also difficult to transer safely and would be a real problem with leaks which are bound to happen, particularly during an accident.
 

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The former ChryCo. had the perfect opportunity back in the 90's, when they had CNG powered minivans running around, and later in 1999....showcased the Dodge Charger Concept Car....presumably to be powered by a CNG 4.7 Litre V8.
Then, a bunch of guys came over from Europe.......and then it all went to $#@&.

P.S.. At the moment, Toyota is working on a Hydrogen fueled Internal Combustion Engine......Just Sayin...;)
If only they actually went for it, it could have showed promise. I'm just tired of all the GO ELECTRIC without giving any consideration for other ideas or simply using what we have. Instead people get harassed when they don't really want the alternative. My neighbor's had a VW that ran off used vegetable oil and it ran great just smelled like french fries half the time lol. The people in Europe have way to much sway for what we should do here. Our country is completely different from theirs in terms of roads and population.
 

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If only they actually went for it, it could have showed promise. I'm just tired of all the GO ELECTRIC without giving any consideration for other ideas or simply using what we have. Instead people get harassed when they don't really want the alternative. My neighbor's had a VW that ran off used vegetable oil and it ran great just smelled like french fries half the time lol. The people in Europe have way to much sway for what we should do here. Our country is completely different from theirs in terms of roads and population.
Obviously, the market disagrees.

There are battery-powered Class 8 trucks already in service. Wabtec is testing battery-electric freight locomotives. In fact, prior to this, nearly all freight locomotives used in North America are diesel-electric (hybrids). The Milwaukee and Pennsylvania railroads both used straight electric locomotives in various line segments,, from the early 1900's.

The technology is not new. It's how we will be using it, and how we are developing it.
 

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Obviously, the market disagrees.

There are battery-powered Class 8 trucks already in service. Wabtec is testing battery-electric freight locomotives. In fact, prior to this, nearly all freight locomotives used in North America are diesel-electric (hybrids). The Milwaukee and Pennsylvania railroads both used straight electric locomotives in various line segments,, from the early 1900's.

The technology is not new. It's how we will be using it, and how we are developing it.
And before that...back in the 1920's and 1930's, there were even some early attempts at steam-turbine / electric hybrid trains (with the turbine and electric bits supplied by GE).

Even then, the men who owned the Railways knew that steam external-combustion was far too inefficient (and becoming way too expensive) to continue running their locomotives, and were on the lookout for less expensive ways to go.
 

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Water vapor is not a problem. It's not a cause or source of climate change. Oxides of nitrogen are a problem but can be controlled with proper design. Compressed natural gas is a total non-starter as you are just still burning hydrocarbons, which produce CO2. CNG is also difficult to transer safely and would be a real problem with leaks which are bound to happen, particularly during an accident.
Raising humidity does have an effect on climate, though. Compare a desert to FL, the climates are not the same, though temperatures and latitude are. And CNG has impurities such as sulfur compounds, it burns more cleanly than oil, but still produces harmful pollutants.
And oxides of nitrogen, as you say, have to be mitigated. Use of electric power in a motor in a car does not require any mitigation.
 

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If only they actually went for it, it could have showed promise. I'm just tired of all the GO ELECTRIC without giving any consideration for other ideas or simply using what we have. Instead people get harassed when they don't really want the alternative. My neighbor's had a VW that ran off used vegetable oil and it ran great just smelled like french fries half the time lol. The people in Europe have way to much sway for what we should do here. Our country is completely different from theirs in terms of roads and population.
I don't see harassment, I see posting of facts in a discussion. Posting facts and challenging assertions that are not true, or discussing them in more detail and weighing the pros and cons, is not harassment, IMO.

And if Europe really had sway here, we'd be paying $9 a gallon for gasoline to discourage its use. We're not.
And we'd have better roads.
 

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I don't see harassment, I see posting of facts in a discussion. Posting facts and challenging assertions that are not true, or discussing them in more detail and weighing the pros and cons, is not harassment, IMO.

And if Europe really had sway here, we'd be paying $9 a gallon for gasoline to discourage its use. We're not.
And we'd have better roads.
And...A much better Public-Transport system!
 

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I don't see harassment, I see posting of facts in a discussion. Posting facts and challenging assertions that are not true, or discussing them in more detail and weighing the pros and cons, is not harassment, IMO.

And if Europe really had sway here, we'd be paying $9 a gallon for gasoline to discourage its use. We're not.
And we'd have better roads.
We probably DO spend that much per gallon though here in the US... the other 6 dollars/gal comes out of your paycheck on a weekly basis.
 

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I had a CNG truck for a job I did in the 80's, it worked very well even the cold temps we have. Cut my fuel costs in half but had to be careful where I drove in distance with the 100L tanks not everywhere had fueling stations for CNG.
 

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We probably DO spend that much per gallon though here in the US... the other 6 dollars/gal comes out of your paycheck on a weekly basis.
? Please explain how paycheck deductions relate to gasoline usage and cost on an individual basis.
 

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See what you started Fast Eddie! (lol) As of right now, there is no perfect solution to solve everyone's concerns about the perfect transportation mode. It is extremely bad for the environment to make these batteries. It causes pollution and the mines that have the rare earth metals are mostly controlled by China from what I have read and studied. Plus, as I have stated, they are not a good means of storing energy although they are getting better. And it's certainly new to me that water vapor or steam causes climate change as most of the steam released to make electricity evaporates and cools to ambient within a few hundred feet of being released. I don't agree with the new studies that point to water vapor as a source of climate change. The climate is going to change even if man were not on this planet. It is an ever evolving circumstance that is manipulated by many, many things. Let's keep the conversation open while we continue studying climate science as there is a great deal that we still don't understand about it. The point that myself and some others are trying to make is that we shouldn't put all of our eggs into one basket. There are other technologies that show promise. Hybrids should be the logical next step whether that is diesel-electric, gas-electric, hydrogen-electric, CNG-electric, etc... and Stellantis and NASCAR are both headed there as we speak. Personally, I'm a big fan of Elon Musk. He's accomplished a great deal more than most. He's a modern age titan of business. He's proved that some Americans are willing to go all electric. Personally, I'm not there yet. But a lot of car companies are under pressure to produce all electric vehicles so that their stock will rise to $1100 a share. And that is not the reality of the situation. Stellantis is smart to be offering a variety of powertrains in their next generation vehicles. Let's let the marketplace and engineering/technology decide the future and not some mandate to be more like Europe. (no offense implied toward Europeans) I enjoy my freedoms and especially my freedom to take a long drive to anywhere in this country I want to go with only a short pit stop for refueling, at a reasonable cost, every 500 miles or so.
 

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In my opinion (as worthless as that may be), lithium ion batteries don't offer the technolgy to make widespread adoption of EVs feasible. The charging times, power densities, thermal issues, the availability of lithium itself as well as the environmental issues are all barriers. That said; all it will take is a breakthrough in battery technology. The aluminum ion batteries under development have the potential to be that breakthrough. For the first time I am cautiously optimistic about widespread adoption of EVs; something I abhored the thought of only a couple of years ago. Interesting article:

Aluminum Ion Batteries
 

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Graphene-Al-ion is interesting, but the prototypes are only at two-thirds the density of Li-ion. That said, if they can industrialize it at that power density, it will be good enough for cars, as it will be pretty much equal to Li-ion in terms of kilowatt-hours per kilogram, given the lower cooling requirements.

Regarding charge-time, you’re still limited by the safety of the charging infrastructure. 350 kilowatt DC is the limit of what’s safe for untrained operators (i.e., Joe Public) to handle. With that limit, and regardless of chemistry, the best you can achieve is a 15~20 minute charging time for 300-400 miles of travel (depending on vehicle weight). That’s not far off a gasoline stop, and you can leave the car hooked up while you go use the restroom and buy a bottle of water. Unlike Li-ion, however, the charging rate will at least be constant (Li-ion’s ability to charge slows down dramatically as you get to 80% full).

The big advantage of moving away from Li-ion is that it would allow batteries to be made further from factories. Lithium-ion cells are classed as hazardous materials, and as such they’re extremely expensive to transport in bulk. A less volatile battery type could be stuffed into a shipping containers and transported over long distances just like bolts or other metal parts.
 

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Graphene-Al-ion is interesting, but the prototypes are only at two-thirds the density of Li-ion. That said, if they can industrialize it at that power density, it will be good enough for cars, as it will be pretty much equal to Li-ion in terms of kilowatt-hours per kilogram, given the lower cooling requirements.

Regarding charge-time, you’re still limited by the safety of the charging infrastructure. 350 kilowatt DC is the limit of what’s safe for untrained operators (i.e., Joe Public) to handle. With that limit, and regardless of chemistry, the best you can achieve is a 15~20 minute charging time for 300-400 miles of travel (depending on vehicle weight). That’s not far off a gasoline stop, and you can leave the car hooked up while you go use the restroom and buy a bottle of water. Unlike Li-ion, however, the charging rate will at least be constant (Li-ion’s ability to charge slows down dramatically as you get to 80% full).

The big advantage of moving away from Li-ion is that it would allow batteries to be made further from factories. Lithium-ion cells are classed as hazardous materials, and as such they’re extremely expensive to transport in bulk. A less volatile battery type could be stuffed into a shipping containers and transported over long distances just like bolts or other metal parts.
Great point about the limitations imposed by the charging infrastructure. At the very least, the Al ion batteries could prove to be the stepping stone to widespread viability.
 

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P.S.. At the moment, Toyota is working on a Hydrogen fueled Internal Combustion Engine......Just Sayin...;)
They sell it in the US and have for quite some time. It's called the Mirai. It's expensive and has limited range.

Since we're pretty much outside of the "no general policy" policy, while I hate to do it, we may have to close/remove this thread.
 
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