Chrysler Kills the Airflow to Go in a Different Direction

jimboy said:

There is NO chance for a Plymouth revival, you might as well ask for DeSoto to return also. Chrysler always had too many Brands and now so does Stellantis, there is no way they would revive Plymouth as a brand. The only hope would be to make it a sub-brand of Chrysler, ie: Chrysler-Plymouth, Cuda, Voyager, Valiant, as entry level versions to a much more up-market Chrysler versions?

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npaladin2000 said:

They're reviving Lancia. Of course, they're a European company, so they're going to prefer European brands anyway. But reviving Lancia makes me even less confident that Chrysler will stick around. Stellantis does have too many brands by any objective measure, and their equity is split into way too many small chunks.

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serpens said:

They’re not reviving Lancia. It never left unlike Plymouth. Lancia is much more like Chrysler in that it’s finally getting investment.

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MIKE3187 said:

I always thought it would be cool if they scrapped Chrysler/Dodge as brands, put them under one 'name' (like Mopar/Pentastar) but kept unique models with unique styling.. Think Hummer EV 'by GMC'.. on paper it might read GMC Hummer EV, but it's seen by consumers as just The Hummer because of the marketing/styling. And Chrysler Corp has a giant catalog of great choices to 'bring back to market'
In a scenario like that, you could see the company bring back heritage brand/nameplates like Plymouth without needing to relaunch an old brand and without a focus on volume but instead focusing on giving the consumer something unique.. but will it happen? I would imagine not ever lol

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First some facts for the discussion:

"full-time workers with Bachelor’s degrees tend to make the most money in their 40s and 50s."
"Gen X Makes Up the Largest Segment of New Vehicle Buyers"
Baby boomers born from 1946 to 1963 (17 years) 60-77, 68 million people in US
Gen X 1964-1981 (17 years) 42-59 (Peak earning years) 65 million people
Millenials 1982-2000 (18 years) 23-41, 72 million people


Last DeSoto made 1961. Present age of 22 year old who bought his first DeSoto new in 1961 = 84
Last Plymouth made 2001. Present age of 22 year old who bought his first Plymouth new in 2001 = 44 = peak earning years.
Hernando DeSoto "Brave leadership, unwavering loyalty, and ruthless schemes for the extortion of native villages for their captured chiefs became de Soto's hallmarks during the conquest of Central America." Served under Cordoba and Pizaro.
Plymouth- Symbol is the Mayflower. Filled with separatist pilgrims escaping persecution in England, although they already had freedom of religion in the Netherlands, but no room to grow.

All good reason why reviving DeSoto is crazy, while reviving Plymouth isn't.

Powdered Toast Man said:

Plymouth has been dead for over 20 years. No one under 30 even knows what a Plymouth is.

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NiharM33 said:

It's not about the time, really, it's just that they never really had a clear image or association, like Hummer.

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valiant67 said:

Plymouth arguably had at least as good a performance image as Dodge did, if not better, during the muscle car years.

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This is exactly why I included in my post "Remember Plymouth was the brand of Sport Satellite/Road Runner/Superbird/Sebring/GTX, Sport Fury, and Valiant/Barracuda/Duster/Scamp." Prior to the '74-'80 time period Plymouth got vehicles with their own wheelbase (shorter than Dodge which was shorter than Chrysler), their own sheet metal, and its own unique Barracuda (and Arrow) models. It had a very clear image, value and value high performance. From 1981 on, Plymouth was just Dodge or Eagle with bright trim and a different grill texture. So no one under 30 knows what Plymouth is, but they buy Asian cars, so they understand value and value high performance, they will catch on quick.

77 Monaco Brougham said:

Yet VAG, which has a comparable number of brands under its umbrella, somehow manages to make it all work, and, in my opinion, quite well.
I think we're going to see something similar emerge out of this "Brady Bunch" of a corporate marriage. I'm of the opinion that what we see right this minute will in no way represent the end result when "this group somehow forms a family".

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"Volkswagen Passenger Cars is the Group's original marque, and the other major subsidiaries include passenger car marques such as Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, and Škoda. Volkswagen AG also has operations in commercial vehicles, owning Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles, along with controlling stakes in truck, bus and diesel engine manufacturers Scania AB and MAN SE." Also Jetta FAW (Jilin China), Scout, Navistar, Bugatti, Italdesign."

Note well that SEAT and Škoda are not sold in North America. Volkswagen had a lot of hubris treating the US like it was the non county EU that it could buffalo on Diesel cars. But even VW didn't have the hubris to bring its Southern and Eastern European mainstream brands to the US. That's how Stellantis needs to make the multiple brands work, keep the mainstream brands regional, European brands for Europe, US brands for the US. Send Fiat back to Europe and South America, build up Chrysler and Dodge again, and if you aren't willing to give Chrysler or Dodge mainstream midsize and compact PHEV/HEV/ICE vehicles then bring back Plymouth as a sub brand for them.

They also have to be able to differentiate what a mainstream brand is. If a brand is known for selling 2 million Subaru clones, 1.3 million extended K car clones, 680K live rear axle RWD cars with small NA 4 cylinder engines (Mitsubishi RWD Colt/Galant/Lancer were basically clones of these), 500K DeDion non independent rear axel cars, 95% with NA 4 cylinder engines (Mitsubishi skipped right past DeDion and went for a fully independent suspension on the Starion/Conquest), and under one good years worth of Corvette production of sporting cars that wouldn't have been considered slow in the US in 1970, then it takes a special kind of hubris to reintroduce the failed brand to the US as if it were some kind of BMW competitor.

npaladin2000 said:

Remember, you're an American. You see it from the perspective of your beloved American nameplates. Stella's executives are from PSA and FCA. It will make a lot of people unhappy but I think the future we're careening towards is Chrysler being a rebadged Peugeot and Dodge being a rebadged Alfa Romeo (that part might not be so bad).

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serpens said:

Sometimes I feel like you just pull these things out of a hat. Why would Chrysler be headed towards being a rebadged Peugeot when all of its upcoming product is on STLA Large? Peugeot isn't even using that platform. The funny part is people on this forum were complaining that Tavares decided against bringing rebadged Peugeot products here under the Chrysler brand in the immediate term because he felt it wasn't worth it.
Dodge is also using STLA Large for imminent product with Alfa's product on the platform coming after.
If product further down the line for either American brand comes out on STLA Small (unlikely) or STLA Medium (more likely but not anytime soon) then sure they may be leveraging as much as possible from other brands within the Stellantis empire, as they should.

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npaladin2000 said:

You're mistaking "concept cars" for "upcoming product." You're also taking The only tangible new product we have for Chrysler/Dodge is the Hornet. A rebadged Tonale. As the original title for this thread stated, Chrysler killed their AIrflow and are now going in a "different direction." And they've got a time limit here. They may have no choice but to rebadge what they can get. And no that will not be enough to save Chrysler.

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NiharM33 said:

I've always seen DS as more fitting of Chrysler badges. Peugeot says Dodge to me, that's why my Intrepid was a Peugeot 408, the Crossfire was a DS4 and the Aspen was a DS7.
They could also rebadge some Jeeps into Chryslers if they want filler product.

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NiharM33 said:

They can create filler product, and then refresh them with unique styling. Think Hornet getting Charger EV styling in 2026/2027.

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valiant67 said:

We’ve been promised Dodge products based on Alfa since at least 2016. New Charger/Challenger based on Giulia. A Dodge version of Stelvio. A Dodge version of Tonale. Only one of them happened.

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npaladin2000 said:

That might make more sense if they're as margin happy as they seen to be, yeah.

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serpens said:

I'm not mistaking the concept cars for anything. Both Windsor and BRampton are gearing up for STLA Large, Christine Feuell (the Chrysler CEO) stated that upcoming product was all STLA Large and she signaled the Airflow wasn't coming as-is as early as 2022 (see the articles from last year I posted earlier). Why would Tavares and the brand CEOs be talking about STLA Large for American brands if they were just going to do an about face and rebadge a bunch of French vehicles?
Alfa also signalled their use STLA Large when the Cassino plant got confirmed as another production site.

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The future we are careening toward should be Chrysler and Dodge being reskinned PSA platform cars, which is exactly the same future Peugeot, Fiat and Alfa are careening toward, except in Europe they will be all BEV. That is why Europe doesn't need Chrysler and Dodge, and the US doesn't need Peugeot, Fiat or Alfa. That doesn't make me unhappy at all, so long as Chrysler and Dodge get restored lineups. If they intend Chrysler, Dodge (and any Plymouth sub brand) to only have large platform vehicles, then they intend for Chrysler and Dodge to die. If Chrysler is to be BEV then either Dodge needs its bottom half of value and value high performance models restored, or Chrysler needs a Plymouth sub-brand restored for those medium and small PHEV/HEV/ICE models. It matters not to me whether they say Dodge or Plymouth on the front, what matters is they have to exist for Chrysler and Dodge to survive.

In a probably futile attempt to get the thread back on track, I think a healthy Chrysler lineup needs to look something like this:

Pacifica - minivan - (PHEV, BEV) - AWD only
Aspen - large CUV - (PHEV, BEV) - RWD-biased AWD only
Ouray - medium CUV - (PHEV, BEV) - RWD-biased AWD only
300 - E-segment - (PHEV, BEV) - RWD-biased AWD only
200 - C/D tweener - (PHEV, BEV) - RWD-biased AWD only

I truly believe Chrysler needs 5 vehicles to be viable long-term. Nothing body on frame. Yes, the 200 name is controversial, but the 300 can carry it. My thought is to have Chrysler go AWD across the entire lineup using electrification predominantly to do so and eliminating the half shafts and differentials for mechanical AWD. The natural bias should be toward RWD allowing Chrysler and Dodge to share as much as possible. Tuning can still be dramatically different, but would allow both to “feel” better. The setup would also probably provide for better use of power if the TTV6 family is coupled with a next-Gen “4xe”-type system. That would be a lot of combined power in top trim (nearly 700hp and potentially 800 lb-ft of torque). I also see Chrysler as all hybrid or full electric given the messaging from Auburn Hills and ever-tightening regulations.

Also to study how Kia and Hyundai turned themselves around.

Feuell said no more alphanumeric names, so I'm banking on either Concorde or Imperial.

The CUV might be Aspen or Newport.

Pacifica might stay the same or go back to Town & Country

She also said all Chryslers will be large cars.

And although the difference between 2025 and 2028 are 3 years, each year would make it 4.

Should a 4th vehicle come in, what do you think it would be?