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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
In the wake of the less than amicable breakup of the JV that Ma Stella had with China's GAC, comes this warning on the increasing difficulties of doing business in China due to ever increasing meddling on the part of both local and national Chinese authorities.

Just speaking for myself, I think CT's point is a valid one.

For more details:

OOPS! Just discovered that The Financial Times sometimes erects pay-walls, so in fairness, let's add an additional link:
 

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Typical behavior by communists. They open up ownership of manufacturing to foreign companies and then use gov't to throw regulations and rules to prevent foreign ownership.

Foreign ownership must include a CCP party member on the board of directors so there is always a conduit into your intellectual property.
 
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(I'm going to do my best to enter this arena as an outsider perspective, to every side. If this sparks too much political expression please delete this message. It will be no offense to me.)

I wouldn't say 'Typical'. That has two sides to that coin. Or ten sided dice. It's typical that a capitalist would expect that once they have a foot in a door for profits it can never be closed.

Or typically, if you can't beat your competitor, buy them. In this situation they can be interpreted as a 'buy them' joined with 'no shirt no shoes no service' to set up this weird twisted government policy that regulates international investor business.

I keep thinking it is... business was invited in to the nice hotel. You can use the peek hole to get an blurry idea who is in the hallway ($$$). You can open the door but that sliding lock chain is there. You will never truly enter the hallway until you are marched down to pay the bill and be escorted out.

Is Tavares is peeking out while seeing more and more rooms on his floor being opened with a master-key? Or this is a stupid analogy that I took way too much time to write. I've deleted paragraphs. Colonialism comparisons.
 

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This isn't communism, this is a particular oligarchy (I'd call them fascist since they have power via control of media, elections, AND corporations, but using the term "fascist" invariably starts arguments, so I'll just say they fit my own personal understanding of the term).

How many communist countries are there, really? Not a whole lot. China, Cuba, sorta of Venezuela but not really (they only took ownership of the oil industry because it was that or not have one at all), maybe North Korea? Maybe I'm missing a few. The old Soviet Union, as well. I don't recall any but China opening up to capitalism and then stealing from anyone who takes advantage of the opening.

That said, I never could believe, for most of my life, how trusting companies were when operating in China, and how little provision they made for problems.
 

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Typical behavior by communists. They open up ownership of manufacturing to foreign companies and then use gov't to throw regulations and rules to prevent foreign ownership.

Foreign ownership must include a CCP party member on the board of directors so there is always a conduit into your intellectual property.
They aren't communist. Not even close. They are hyper-capitalist with an authoritarian government sticking its nose in everything to enrich the ruling oligarchy. If you aren't in the oligarchy, it's par for the course for everyone to scam everyone.

There are very few truly "communist" countries any more. Cuba, Venezuela, and Vietnam are on the short list; only one of those (Cuba) sticks with its original ideals.
 

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This isn't communism, this is a particular oligarchy (I'd call them fascist since they have power via control of media, elections, AND corporations, but using the term "fascist" invariably starts arguments, so I'll just say they fit my own personal understanding of the term).
From a political science standpoint, fascism has a number of requirements that China doesn't meet.

Many authoritarian governments can be considered pseudo-fascist - based the on wholesale corporate control of the media and all levels of government - rather than "fully" fascist, as you would think of in Franco's Spain, Mussolini's Italy, or Hitler's Germany. I would put China in the former and not the latter.
 

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In China, many of the companies are owned by Party members, in whole or in part. Most of the companies work with the Party, they certainly work at the Party’s sufferance. Those who misbehave, as you might have noticed, disappear. I'll go with fascist though not as far as Franco and such. I will say it worked backwards from the Italian-German model - the companies did not put the government in place in China, it was vice versa! (I don't know enough about Franco's ascent to power to say anything which is why I'm not putting Spain in there.)
 

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China is communist. The communist party is the only party.
China's human rights abuses are too many to list, but include forced abortion, sterilization, slavery, genocide and mass executions for non-violent crimes.
Add to that China's theft of intellectual property, currency manipulation, bribery of university, business and government officials.

So, you can all sit around and debate what to call it. That will not change the fact that it is one of the most horrible and abusive governments in the world today.
 
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China is communist. The communist party is the only party.
China's human rights abuses are too many to list, but include forced abortion, sterilization, slavery, genocide and mass executions for non-violent crimes.
Add to that China's theft of intellectual property, currency manipulation, bribery of university, business and government officials.

So, you can all sit around and debate what to call it. That will not change the fact that it is one of the most horrible and abusive governments in the world today.
That's like saying Nazi Germany was socialists because the National [removed] Party was in charge, or that the USA is democratic because the Democrats are in charge. Names are meaningless. All the things you say were done by capitalists in the past. Currency manipulation? Don't make me laugh, the USA did that for years. Bribery of officials? What country has none? Sterilization? USA. Forced abortion? USA. Slavery? Come on, we have states now making it illegal to teach about it. Genocide? Been there, done that, or hadn’t you noticed the lack of native Americans in most states? Mass executions for non-violent crimes... well, we didn’t do that, but we had police shooting into crowds of strikers and peaceful demonstrators. Anyway, now you're talking about something done in Germany, Italy, and Spain, none of which were ever communist.

I am absolutely not defending China. I am saying (a) they are clearly not really communist, given how much private enterprise the government encourages, and (b) that the evils you list are not the signs of communism, but are evils you can pin to just about any government system.
 

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China is communist. The communist party is the only party.
China's human rights abuses are too many to list, but include forced abortion, sterilization, slavery, genocide and mass executions for non-violent crimes.
Add to that China's theft of intellectual property, currency manipulation, bribery of university, business and government officials.

So, you can all sit around and debate what to call it. That will not change the fact that it is one of the most horrible and abusive governments in the world today.
What you state is basically true but I have to say that there are worst governments out there. None near as large as the one we are discussing.
 

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What you state is basically true but I have to say that there are worst governments out there. None near as large as the one we are discussing.
I think we all agree that China's behavior is bad and some governments are worse. ...
 

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What you state is basically true but I have to say that there are worst governments out there. None near as large as the one we are discussing.
That is why I said "one of the most...". Yes, none of those others have the economic and military capability of China.

PS: China self-identifies as Communist.
 

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PS: China self-identifies as Communist.
So what? I can mention numerous people who self-identify as “Christian” who aren’t. Or Jews for Jesus, who certainly aren’t the first half of their title. Anyone can call themselves anything. If I self-identify as handicapped, can I park in that big blue space?
 

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So what? I can mention numerous people who self-identify as “Christian” who aren’t. Or Jews for Jesus, who certainly aren’t the first half of their title. Anyone can call themselves anything. If I self-identify as handicapped, can I park in that big blue space?
Sure, you can park there and possibly have to give a donation to the local government and perhaps gain a memo of misunderstanding of your status from a fellow driver.
 

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So what? I can mention numerous people who self-identify as “Christian” who aren’t. Or Jews for Jesus, who certainly aren’t the first half of their title. Anyone can call themselves anything. If I self-identify as handicapped, can I park in that big blue space?
Who are you to judge who is Christian and who is not?
Do you judge those who claim to be women but were born as biological men?

If China calls itself communist, then it is communist.
 

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Some people identify as whatever but by actions it is hard to believe their commitment. Your heart is another story and that is something we cannot really know.
 

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China is a POS but they are not, by definition, a communist country. If I say that I am a King, am I one?
 

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All these labels are meaningless.

Not every monarchy was identical to the others. Not every dictatorship was identical to others.

Hitler and Mussolini were fascists, but they did not do everything the same.

No system is going to fit into some textbook definition perfectly.
 
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