I took my Journey in for routine service today. I was left alone and intimate with a black Avenger RT and a quartet of Darts. I resisted the urge to drive any of them but next week when the local dealer gets some 2.4 Darts I will be testing both back to back.
Dart GT...2.4 makes a huge diffrence.....
Just drove the Dar GT for the first time.... and all I can say is YEA BABY!!!! I can only imaagine what this baby is going to do with the 9speed. Dont get me wrong you wont be racing Mustangs but it is now "fun to drive" The SRT will be the beast...if that is what you want. But IMHO the GT delivers on the fun promise. I can also see the justifcation for the lessor MPGs this baby really revs!!!! I also LOVE the interior.... If this interior was availble on the 2013 we would have been in much better shape. Also note the pricing aint bad for this pkg..... This one is loaded pretty nicely only missing moonroof and Navigaion.....evrthing else is there.. I personally would have ordered it without the tech Pkg and added the Navigation....
compared to a loaded Dart LTD on my showroom floor with a MSRP of $28,270 the GT looks like a STEAL
they are getting there.....
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compared to a loaded Dart LTD on my showroom floor with a MSRP of $28,270 the GT looks like a STEAL
they are getting there.....
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And that was about the last time that a Mopar vehicle served as a leader in a performance category.srt4evah said:Sad, since the first "true" SRT vehicle was a 4-cylinder. Viper already existed, and the Ram SRT-10 came a year later than the Dodge SRT-4...
Truthfully, the 4-cylinder performance market is dramatically different today than it was 10 years ago. 10 years ago the SRT-4 was a revelation, a 230hp+ monster among 170-200hp competition. Turned the whole segment upside down.
One encouraging ray of hope is that they've decided to stay with the GT designation instead of continuing the trend of diluting out the R/T badge.
Nice car but I'm waiting for the SRT or the next 200/Avenger..Time to get rid of my poor G6.
If a Mopar product is going to be competitive again in the performance 4 cyl. arena they are going to need 300 hp to keep up, especially with cars like the turbo 305 hp Subaru WRX and a 201 hp NA Honda. I'd like to see a SRT4 Dart and I believe "if they will build it, they will come".Charger Red said:And that was about the last time that a Mopar vehicle served as a leader in a performance category.
One encouraging ray of hope is that they've decided to stay with the GT designation instead of continuing the trend of diluting out the R/T badge.
It's not 2003 anymore.neongary said:If a Mopar product is going to be competitive again in the performance 4 cyl. arena they are going to need 300 hp to keep up, especially with cars like the turbo 305 hp Subaru WRX and a 201 hp NA Honda. I'd like to see a SRT4 Dart and I believe "if they will build it, they will come".
Mike
.. the Subaru WRX is not even near the same price-range an SRT is. Or was, in '03. (in 03, the STi cost around 30k base; the Evo cost 29k base; and the nSRT was under 20k)
That may be the whole issue. Price point. As much as cars keep getting more expensive; it's going to be hard to keep the cost down, especially with a ~300hp AWD machine. I mean, the STi already tops probably near 40k (depending on accessories, of course) and starts at around 35; To get a Dart SRT AWD below 35 will likely be difficult; so it'd have to out-perform the tried-and-true Subaru.
That said, I still think there should be two trims offered just below the SRT model:
GTS - FWD same hp as R/T, but has all the 'tech', and smoother ride of the Limited. (27-30k)
R/T - FWD, a bit less hp than SRT to make it daily-drivable, but the best suspension setup for track; for instance, maybe an optional track-mode with a completely defeatable TCS. (something for the 30-35k)
SRT - AWD; top of the line, with all the options you could think of. (35k+)
That may be the whole issue. Price point. As much as cars keep getting more expensive; it's going to be hard to keep the cost down, especially with a ~300hp AWD machine. I mean, the STi already tops probably near 40k (depending on accessories, of course) and starts at around 35; To get a Dart SRT AWD below 35 will likely be difficult; so it'd have to out-perform the tried-and-true Subaru.
That said, I still think there should be two trims offered just below the SRT model:
GTS - FWD same hp as R/T, but has all the 'tech', and smoother ride of the Limited. (27-30k)
R/T - FWD, a bit less hp than SRT to make it daily-drivable, but the best suspension setup for track; for instance, maybe an optional track-mode with a completely defeatable TCS. (something for the 30-35k)
SRT - AWD; top of the line, with all the options you could think of. (35k+)
Or go even simpler - GT gets all the Limited's goodies, an R/T sticks with basic goodies, but both use the "goosed" 2.4 Tigershark.
GTS can be an SRT-appearance package on a GT.
GTS can be an SRT-appearance package on a GT.
yeah, but with that whole "two-stage" thing they did with the concept/prototype announcement (yeah i know, long time ago) .. people will be peeved if there's no performance aspect. It was expected with the Mopar '13 to be more than stripes and spoilers.. *shrug*
Kind of my point. The Fiat Way(TM) is real big on special editions, colors, and decals...not so much on performance differences.
It wouldn't take 300hp to compete with the Focus ST, Mazdaspeed3, or WRX. They all make a little over 260hp.neongary said:If a Mopar product is going to be competitive again in the performance 4 cyl. arena they are going to need 300 hp to keep up, especially with cars like the turbo 305 hp Subaru WRX and a 201 hp NA Honda. I'd like to see a SRT4 Dart and I believe "if they will build it, they will come".
Drove the GT the other day, certainly a lot nicer than the 2.0L and 1.4L in terms of everyday drivability. It isn't going to be mistaken for a performance engine (which is why they removed the R/T moniker I'm sure) but at least makes the entire car feel more lively.
The WRX STi makes 305 hp. Besides, let's not just keep up, lets go beyond the competition. I agree with Suzq though, pricing is probably a real issue with a Dart at that power level. I'm thinking that if Mopar could make a real performance machine without all the fancy gizmos or luxury items (SRT Core or Roadrunner) and at reasonable price, it might have some takers.srt4evah said:It wouldn't take 300hp to compete with the Focus ST, Mazdaspeed3, or WRX. They all make a little over 260hp.
The standard WRX makes 265hp which is what he was referring to. I dont think SRT needs to play in the STi, Evo X playground with the Dart, leave that to the Cherokee or new Avenger. A FWD Dart SRT with 250-270 HP with class leading driving dynamics would be perfect. Price it similar to the Focus ST, starting at $24k midline option around $26k and top of the line at $28k plus options.neongary said:The WRX STi makes 305 hp. Besides, let's not just keep up, lets go beyond the competition. I agree with Suzq though, pricing is probably a real issue with a Dart at that power level. I'm thinking that if Mopar could make a real performance machine without all the fancy gizmos or luxury items (SRT Core or Roadrunner) and at reasonable price, it might have some takers.
And the STi and Evo sales have dropped tremendously compared to nearly 10 years ago.neongary said:The WRX STi makes 305 hp. Besides, let's not just keep up, lets go beyond the competition. I agree with Suzq though, pricing is probably a real issue with a Dart at that power level. I'm thinking that if Mopar could make a real performance machine without all the fancy gizmos or luxury items (SRT Core or Roadrunner) and at reasonable price, it might have some takers.
The Dart should compete with the Focus ST and Mazdaspeed 3 however, IMHO, and thus will compete with the WRX.
The Evo and STi will probably be gone in a few years.
Mike
Uh yah, STi sure, which also stickers at $34,495.. the WRX starts at $25,995 and makes 265HP.neongary said:The WRX STi makes 305 hp. Besides, let's not just keep up, lets go beyond the competition. I agree with Suzq though, pricing is probably a real issue with a Dart at that power level. I'm thinking that if Mopar could make a real performance machine without all the fancy gizmos or luxury items (SRT Core or Roadrunner) and at reasonable price, it might have some takers.
If the Dart made as much power as the Caliber SRT-4, 285HP, it would lead the pack of sub-$26,000 performance compacts.
Not true, the Gen IV Viper in 2010 was the class leader as well.Charger Red said:And that was about the last time that a Mopar vehicle served as a leader in a performance category.
Personally, I feel like in the compact market, bang for buck and real world fun trumps winning wang measuring competitions. Personally, I'd rather see a more modest turbo at a mimimal upcharge (say, 1k if possible) for something like a 240 HP vehicle at something like 22k (1k over the GT). Especially if the MPG managed not to drop too far, it'd be the best balance of real world usable with the extra kick.srt4evah said:Uh yah, STi sure, which also stickers at $34,495.. the WRX starts at $25,995 and makes 265HP.
If the Dart made as much power as the Caliber SRT-4, 285HP, it would lead the pack of sub-$26,000 performance compacts.
Not true, the Gen IV Viper in 2010 was the class leader as well.
Most of the other vehicles mentioned seem to me to be more of a Niche.
It may not win matches, but would be more accessable to the daily drivers. Then they can follow up with the more Niche, more expensive "I will kill you all" version to win the matches.
As a previous owner of Neon ACRs and a couple SRT-4s, Evo IX and X, I'd have to say it's not about any winning wang competitions for me either, BUT it is all about knowing that I got the best car for the money. If I'm paying $25k for a performance compact car, I wouldn't really feel I made the right purchase if I got a 240hp Dart when 265hp Focus ST and Mazdaspeed3 are available. It's not because I intend to stoplight race those cars every time I see them, but why would I buy less performance per dollar if I have a choice?bumonbox said:Personally, I feel like in the compact market, bang for buck and real world fun trumps winning wang measuring competitions. Personally, I'd rather see a more modest turbo at a mimimal upcharge (say, 1k if possible) for something like a 240 HP vehicle at something like 22k (1k over the GT). Especially if the MPG managed not to drop too far, it'd be the best balance of real world usable with the extra kick.
Most of the other vehicles mentioned seem to me to be more of a Niche.
It may not win matches, but would be more accessable to the daily drivers. Then they can follow up with the more Niche, more expensive "I will kill you all" version to win the matches.
For that kind of buyer, the Dart GT or possible future R/T with a mild turbo setup is probably right up their alley. 230-240hp R/T would probably sit very well with a lot of people, but I'd rather see an SRT Dart with at least 280HP. I really don't think the SRT Dart needs 300HP or more, at 280HP it would be what the original SRT-4 was, class-leading.
Back in the day it took a few years for the Dart to become a performer. The 273 4V was a decent runner but performance didn't really take off until 68 with the introduction of the 340. GT's were more of an appearance package....trim, bucket seats. The GTS had it all.
lol, I am not sure we disagree. I'd like to see a 22-23k offering that is about being fun to drive and very accessible, but this would be a, as you said it, future GT or R/T offering. Just a high performance version meant to be a fun car, not win it all. Then, offer an SRT-4 version in addition. I don't personally believe it MUST have over 300 HP either. 280 or 290 with a still accessible price tag - not far off from Focus ST and Mazdaspeed territory.srt4evah said:As a previous owner of Neon ACRs and a couple SRT-4s, Evo IX and X, I'd have to say it's not about any winning wang competitions for me either, BUT it is all about knowing that I got the best car for the money. If I'm paying $25k for a performance compact car, I wouldn't really feel I made the right purchase if I got a 240hp Dart when 265hp Focus ST and Mazdaspeed3 are available. It's not because I intend to stoplight race those cars every time I see them, but why would I buy less performance per dollar if I have a choice?
For that kind of buyer, the Dart GT or possible future R/T with a mild turbo setup is probably right up their alley. 230-240hp R/T would probably sit very well with a lot of people, but I'd rather see an SRT Dart with at least 280HP. I really don't think the SRT Dart needs 300HP or more, at 280HP it would be what the original SRT-4 was, class-leading.
I think we may well be on the same page.
I think we're on the same page.bumonbox said:lol, I am not sure we disagree. I'd like to see a 22-23k offering that is about being fun to drive and very accessible, but this would be a, as you said it, future GT or R/T offering. Just a high performance version meant to be a fun car, not win it all. Then, offer an SRT-4 version in addition. I don't personally believe it MUST have over 300 HP either. 280 or 290 with a still accessible price tag - not far off from Focus ST and Mazdaspeed territory.
I think we may well be on the same page.
Mopar 2.4L R/T with 210HP (emissions certified Mopar GTS 210) for $22k
Turbo 2.4L SRT with 285HP (same as Caliber SRT-4) for $25k
That would be just lovely, but I think it's a bit much to ask or expect at this stage.
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