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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
AN news piece on engines has Bob Lee saying
that electrification has been overblown.
That is just disappointing on so many different levels. Of all the alternative fuels the one government entities are most interested in is electrified cars. It is also the easiest to build infrastructure for. Without government support for infrastructure it will be hard to get an AFV platform running and without AFV its going to be hard to meet CAFE.

I wonder what their PHEV architecture is and will it be able to make 40miles on electric only.
 

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Vaguely badass...
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To be clear, Bob Lee's presentation stated that "Electrification has been over-blown by the media. With the exception of a relatively small group of early adopters, the market continues to be primarily driven by regulatory requirements. FCA will launch a PHEV minivan in 2016 to comply with ZEV requirements. Several mild hybrid applications will come to market shortly thereafter."

Infrastructure is an issue for ALL alternative fuel vehicles.

Other highlights from the Powertrain presentation:

• The overarching driver for powertrain technology change over the next 5 years is CO2 reduction – driven mainly by regulation but increasingly by customer preference.

• FCA and the industry in general have made great strides in improving the efficiency of the internal combustion engine. Much more progress will come as gasoline and diesel engine technologies converge. FCA will start the global roll out of a new small gasoline engine family in 2015 which incorporates these new and emerging technologies.

• Diesel, a Fiat core technology, will increase outside of Europe. The RAM 1500 and Grand Cherokee applications in NAFTA are two recent examples.

• CNG can play a significant role in reducing emissions and dependence on oil. Although widespread usage is not expected to develop in the U.S. primarily due to the lack of a public distribution infrastructure, CNG remains strong in other global markets.

• Despite the strong regulatory push by CARB’s ZEV mandate, fuel cells still are not commercially viable for mainstream automobiles. The technology is too expensive and the infrastructure to create and distribute hydrogen with a net CO2 footprint reduction is not in place.
 

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Not to mention the phev t&c will get 75mpg
 

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Electric cars predate gasoline powered cars, Hybrids followed closely after. Electric today have the same issues that they had over a century ago. Storage, range, and refill. If it was easy to solve and easy to implement a greater progress would have been made in the last century. Government mandate won't change that only market driven solution are effective. Let alone if I buy a electric here it CO2 output is worse than a gas engine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yep, infrastructure is a big deal and electrification has the greatest interest by governments to date... no cars.

CO2 is a greater emphasis in Europe than the U.S in the U.S its going to be PM and Nox.

And we still wait for diesel in other models all the while being told they will not be options. The rest of the industry is increasing their diesel availability in the U.S.

CNG is strong in Europe (no growth) and Argentina.

Hydrogen costs are extrodinary and outlined in a CARB paper a few years ago but CA is pressing on regardless.
 

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Vaguely badass...
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Interesting.

Makes offering "light-duty" diesel models:
Audi (5)
BMW (5)
Mercedes (4)
Porsche (1)
Chevrolet (1)
Jeep (1)
RAM (1)
VW (5)

No Ford. No Toyota. No Honda.

Would be interesting to be the actual diesel model sales rates in the US.

Who's increasing their diesel availability in the U.S.? I haven't been keeping up as I should be.
 

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Vaguely badass...
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So, automakers are slowly, methodically, and cautiously bringing in more diesel options to the U.S. market.

That much, I knew.
 

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Stratuscaster said:
So, automakers are slowly, methodically, and cautiously bringing in more diesel options to the U.S. market.

That much, I knew.
I'm more likely than not to purchase a used vehicle from here on out. And if I do settle on that, I also think I'll get the fine toothed comb out and evaluate VW Diesel (Passat or Jetta).

I'd been hoping Fiat Chrysler would've already offered a few models. They're beginning to show up now, but Molasses in January is much quicker.
 

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To be clear, Bob Lee's presentation stated that "Electrification has been over-blown by the media. With the exception of a relatively small group of early adopters, the market continues to be primarily driven by regulatory requirements. FCA will launch a PHEV minivan in 2016 to comply with ZEV requirements. Several mild hybrid applications will come to market shortly thereafter."

Infrastructure is an issue for ALL alternative fuel vehicles.

Other highlights from the Powertrain presentation:

• The overarching driver for powertrain technology change over the next 5 years is CO2 reduction – driven mainly by regulation but increasingly by customer preference.

• FCA and the industry in general have made great strides in improving the efficiency of the internal combustion engine. Much more progress will come as gasoline and diesel engine technologies converge. FCA will start the global roll out of a new small gasoline engine family in 2015 which incorporates these new and emerging technologies.

• Diesel, a Fiat core technology, will increase outside of Europe. The RAM 1500 and Grand Cherokee applications in NAFTA are two recent examples.

• CNG can play a significant role in reducing emissions and dependence on oil. Although widespread usage is not expected to develop in the U.S. primarily due to the lack of a public distribution infrastructure, CNG remains strong in other global markets.

• Despite the strong regulatory push by CARB’s ZEV mandate, fuel cells still are not commercially viable for mainstream automobiles. The technology is too expensive and the infrastructure to create and distribute hydrogen with a net CO2 footprint reduction is not in place.
I drop in occasionally, Good to see you around Strat!
 

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EVs will never go mainstream until battery technology hits that can provide substantially more power per charge, and can be fully charged substantially faster.

Currently, a vehicle like a Wrangler 4xe costs around $0.10 to $0.15 per mile to operate on electricity depending on local utility rates and then $0.10 to $0.13 afterward on gasoline depending on local fuel pricing. And it takes 12+ hours to charge from a standard household outlet.

By contrast, the same Wrangler with the diesel engine can operate at $0.13 per mile with no plugs, no cords, no worries about range, and it can be refilled in literally 5 minutes from locations on any street corner you see.

There is zero financial or environmental case for an EV now, and won't be until tech progresses significantly. There are a handful of vehicles on the market that this doesn't apply to in and apples to apples fashion because their range is greater than a Wrangler, but you get the idea....
 
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You should be comparing the 4xe to a Wrangler 392, not a Wrangler diesel. Look at the acceleration.

Your bigotry on electric cars ignores the realities. You can say there is no financial or environmental case for an EV now, and you're just wrong. The fact that you make your case by saying "This particular car designed to go really fast with V6 mileage is not as good as the slow but economical diesel."

You have to compare cars to what they are replacing. I hate Tesla but the Model S replaces cars like a Mercedes S or, yes, Challenger 392. Is the 392 faster? In a race, yes; in a sprint, they're awfully close.

I do think the BEVs are coming maybe more quickly than they should, but the technology is getting better every day - by leaps and bounds. I think we're at that tipping point. Certainly all those local delivery trucks should be electric now. Passenger cars? I think I agree with you that hybrids are usually ideal, but hey, a Bolt would fit my needs perfectly fine if I wanted an automatic.
 

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With the electrification mandates in Europe and China I believe it will bleed over to the North America, even if there are not government mandates. I believe we will see more government mandates for electrification, and I would not be surprised if we all move to be EV’s in the next 15 years.

We bought a new car In the fall, and we were interested in a BEV, we could not find a EV that met our needs. We looked at a Tesla model 3, and was extremely disappointed with the IP and the room. When we come to replace my 2500 in a couple years I hope there is a PHEV available for the 2500s and 3500s.
 

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The battery should outlast the vehicle ;)

Million-Mile Batteries? They’re Coming

The 12 Million Mile Battery

"The experts call Elon Musk’s 1 million mile battery the Holy Grail in the $7 trillion electric vehicle boom.



And not only electric cars, but the battery revolution is projected to generate $51 trillion in the next decade as it promises to launch virtually free clean energy and emerging technologies such as 5G and the Internet of Things from concept to reality.

The winner of this historic revolution will be the best, most powerful and affordable battery. The experts believe that Tesla clinched that race, but they are DEAD WRONG…

Because one former Tesla employee has beat Tesla to the punch.

He created a new energy innovation so powerful it can send a Tesla cross country without charging — FOUR TIMES.

Imagine a “superbattery” that:
  • Charges in eight minutes — not hours.
  • Lasts 9,200 miles between charges.
  • And has a lifespan of 12 MILLION miles.
This former Tesla employee is one of the company’s “original seven” employees. He created the Tesla Roadster. He solved Tesla’s biggest problem — lithium-ion batteries catching fire.

But he left Tesla to bring his greatest innovation — this energy technology — to the public on his own."
 

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You should be comparing the 4xe to a Wrangler 392, not a Wrangler diesel. Look at the acceleration.

Your bigotry on electric cars ignores the realities. You can say there is no financial or environmental case for an EV now, and you're just wrong. The fact that you make your case by saying "This particular car designed to go really fast with V6 mileage is not as good as the slow but economical diesel."

You have to compare cars to what they are replacing. I hate Tesla but the Model S replaces cars like a Mercedes S or, yes, Challenger 392. Is the 392 faster? In a race, yes; in a sprint, they're awfully close.

I do think the BEVs are coming maybe more quickly than they should, but the technology is getting better every day - by leaps and bounds. I think we're at that tipping point. Certainly all those local delivery trucks should be electric now. Passenger cars? I think I agree with you that hybrids are usually ideal, but hey, a Bolt would fit my needs perfectly fine if I wanted an automatic.
People don't buy EVs for speed. They buy them for efficiency. Hence, the diesel is the best apples to apples comparison.

We can agree to disagree, but there is no environmental or financial case for the 4xe, period.

It reminds me of a family member of mine who is the Commissioner of our state Division of Waste Management. He told me one day last month that one of their biggest worries is where are we going to put the solar panels and battery packs when their useful life is over? Putting things like that in land fills is a nightmare of its own proportions.
 

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I think all Stallantis investment over the next years will only be in electrification, and they will not introduce any pure ICE vehicles. The new vehicles introduced will be BEVs and PHEVs. I think the ICE vehicles will continue to wither until replacement.
 
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