Actually, federal law prohibits doing away with the catcon, even if you don't have emissions testing. And the loss of backpressure may adversely affect performance. Certainly it will affect the noise of the exhaust. I realize they are expensive, but they do serve a purpose. And they cut emissions levels of hydrocarbons as much as 10x.
Emergency - Can a mechanical fuel pump fail intermittently?
Hey guys,
My '87 3.9L Dakota just quit on me and I've got to get it fixed TODAY. I think it's the fuel pump, but let me know if you think it's something else.
Going down the road the engine just died - no sputtering or anything. BUT when I pumped the gas it ran briefly, less than a second. That was while I was still coasting in Drive. It did that the first 2 or 3 times I pumped the gas, but not again.
After sitting about 45 minutes, it started after cranking for a couple of seconds.
I think the carb is being starved of fuel, the brief seconds it ran were when the accelerator pump shot fuel from the bowl (assuming this carb has a bowl), but then ran the bowl dry. I think that's also why, when it did start again, it took a few seconds of cranking.
But I don't understand why it would start again after sitting a few minutes. That's what makes me unsure if its the fuel pump or not.
The fuel filter was replaced in August.
If I was flush with cash I'd just slap a new pump and filter on it. Right now I've got be careful what I spend the $$ on.
I thought about water in the gas, but wouldn't that make it sputter for a while before it just quit completely?
My '87 3.9L Dakota just quit on me and I've got to get it fixed TODAY. I think it's the fuel pump, but let me know if you think it's something else.
Going down the road the engine just died - no sputtering or anything. BUT when I pumped the gas it ran briefly, less than a second. That was while I was still coasting in Drive. It did that the first 2 or 3 times I pumped the gas, but not again.
After sitting about 45 minutes, it started after cranking for a couple of seconds.
I think the carb is being starved of fuel, the brief seconds it ran were when the accelerator pump shot fuel from the bowl (assuming this carb has a bowl), but then ran the bowl dry. I think that's also why, when it did start again, it took a few seconds of cranking.
But I don't understand why it would start again after sitting a few minutes. That's what makes me unsure if its the fuel pump or not.
The fuel filter was replaced in August.
If I was flush with cash I'd just slap a new pump and filter on it. Right now I've got be careful what I spend the $$ on.
I thought about water in the gas, but wouldn't that make it sputter for a while before it just quit completely?
61 - 80 of 120 Posts
I really do appreciate your input Bob because you know a lot more about these cars than I do, but you're barking up the wrong tree w/ that global warming crap. There has never been a single shred of evidence that emissions have a "greenhouse" effect, or even that freon does anything whatsoever to the ozone. What is very evident however is that lots of government types and their friends are making millions of $$ off the implementation of regulations that supposedly make us safer, while at the same time making everything we do and touch much more expensive. And don't get me started on the fact that all around the globe we are seeing record LOW temperatures at the same time our government is trying to convince us they need to tax us more to fight global WARMING.Bob Lincoln said:Actually, federal law prohibits doing away with the catcon, even if you don't have emissions testing. And the loss of backpressure may adversely affect performance. Certainly it will affect the noise of the exhaust. I realize they are expensive, but they do serve a purpose. And they cut emissions levels of hydrocarbons as much as 10x.
Anyway, I'm sure the muffler shop is up to speed on what the law says they can and cannot do.
Umm....NOTHING in my post has anything to do with global warming. Or freon. Or greenhouses. Or ozone.
Excessive hydrocarbon emissions are proven to cause smog, which in turn causes and aggravates asthma and other lung diseases, as well. Gasoline contains benzene, which is a known carcinogen. If you are over 45 years old, you'd know what a nightmare Los Angeles and other cities were until the Clean Air Act was passed in 1970. It's orders of magnitude better than it was then.
The muffler shop may know the law, and they could be fined if caught, but IF is the operative word. Here in MA, if you sell a car that does not comply, you are legally responsible for the cost of restoring it. Other states may have similar laws.
Excessive hydrocarbon emissions are proven to cause smog, which in turn causes and aggravates asthma and other lung diseases, as well. Gasoline contains benzene, which is a known carcinogen. If you are over 45 years old, you'd know what a nightmare Los Angeles and other cities were until the Clean Air Act was passed in 1970. It's orders of magnitude better than it was then.
The muffler shop may know the law, and they could be fined if caught, but IF is the operative word. Here in MA, if you sell a car that does not comply, you are legally responsible for the cost of restoring it. Other states may have similar laws.
Bob, if you can't see the connection between emissions laws of the 70's and the slippery slope they started us down, then I won't waste any more space here on an unrelated topic. Like I said, I very much appreciate your assistance w/ my truck.
I'm just advising you that eliminating the catalytic converter is illegal everywhere in the US. What you choose to do is at your own risk; $25,00 fine for the shop, $2,500 for the vehicle owner.
Thanks Bob. I'll keep that in mind.Bob Lincoln said:I'm just advising you that eliminating the catalytic converter is illegal everywhere in the US. What you choose to do is at your own risk; $25,00 fine for the shop, $2,500 for the vehicle owner.
I decided to look into this. Here's what I've found so far. This document is for imports, but I understand the rules are the same. I'll post the domestic information as soon as I find it.Bob Lincoln said:I'm just advising you that eliminating the catalytic converter is illegal everywhere in the US. What you choose to do is at your own risk; $25,00 fine for the shop, $2,500 for the vehicle owner.
"A vehicle is exempted if it has been 21 years or more since its original production year and it is in its original unmodified condition. Vehicles in any condition may be excluded if they were manufactured prior to the year in which EPA's regulations for the class of vehicle took effect."
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/imports/documents/420b11015.pdf
http://epw.senate.gov/envlaws/cleanair.pdf Page 237, Section 203 (a)(3)(A) and (3)(B)
Penalties under page 239, Section 205.
Penalties under page 239, Section 205.
Thanks for the link Bob. I see where you're getting the info on penalties for violation. But Sec. 202 actually defines which vehicles the CAA applies to. Pg 221 Sec. 202(a)(1) says the law applies to the "useful life" of the vehicle. Pg 227 Sec. 202(d)(1) defines the useful life for vehicles under 6k GVWR as 10yrs or 100k miles, whichever comes first. This is probably where my shop is getting the 10yr rule. Looks like I'll be ok just removing the cat.
(Sorry for any typos, I'm doing this on the iPhone)
(Sorry for any typos, I'm doing this on the iPhone)
Nope. Read it again. Section 203, not 202. Read the parts I indicated. There is no time limit. It is illegal to disable or remove ANY emissions device.
You're killing me. Both 203 and 205 refer back to a violation of 202. 202 clearly says the CAA only applies to the "useful life" of the vehicle then goes on to define the useful life as 10yrs or 100k miles which means 203 and 205 DO NOT APPLY after the useful life of the vehicle. IF the violation occurs DURING the useful life, then there is no time limit on prosecution.Bob Lincoln said:Nope. Read it again. Section 203, not 202. Read the parts I indicated. There is no time limit. It is illegal to disable or remove ANY emissions device.
Wrong. You are misreading section 202. It refers to the warranty period that the manufacturer must meet. That's the useful life. Read ALL of section 202. Section 205 refers to violations of section 203. You cannot legally remove or disable any emissions controls, ever. As I said, it's at your risk.
"(1) The Administrator shall by regulation prescribe (and
from time to time revise) in accordance with the provisions of
this section, standards applicable to the emission of any air
pollutant from any class or classes of new motor vehicles or
new motor vehicle engines, which in his judgment cause, or
contribute to, air pollution which may reasonably be anticipated
to endanger public health or welfare. Such standards
shall be applicable to such vehicles and engines for their useful
life (as determined under subsection (d), relating to useful life
of vehicles for purposes of certification), whether such vehicles
and engines are designed as complete systems or incorporate
devices to prevent or control such pollution."
This means that the vehicles must meet the emissions limits that the federal government defines, for the pollutants that it defines, for the useful life of the vehicle. That means that AFTER the useful life of the vehicle, it is not required to meet those limits. So the manufacturers do not have to create cars that can meet those limits after that period, or warranty emissions beyond that limit. That's what this section means. It does NOT mean that anti-pollution devices can be removed at that point.
(d) The Administrator shall prescribe regulations under which
the useful life of vehicles and engines shall be determined for purposes
of subsection (a)(1) of this section and section 207. Such regulations
shall provide that except where a different useful life period
is specified in this title useful life shall—
(1) in the case of light duty vehicles and light duty vehicle
engines and light-duty trucks up to 3,750 lbs. LVW and up to
6,000 lbs. GVWR, be a period of use of five years or of fifty
thousand miles (or the equivalent), whichever first occurs, except
that in the case of any requirement of this section which
first becomes applicable after the enactment of the Clean Air
Act Amendments of 1990 where the useful life period is not
otherwise specified for such vehicles and engines, the period
shall be 10 years or 100,000 miles (or the equivalent), whichever
first occurs, with testing for purposes of in-use compliance
under section 207 up to (but not beyond) 7 years or 75,000
miles (or the equivalent), whichever first occurs;
This is the period during which the vehicle must comply with the emissions levels set (for HC, NOx, CO). In other words, this is the warranty period for the emissions equipment. The manufacturer must ensure that their equipment makes the vehicle capable of meeting the standards for this period.
SEC. 203. (a) The following acts and the causing thereof are
prohibited—
(1) in the case of a manufacturer of new motor vehicles or
new motor vehicle engines for distribution in commerce, the
sale, or the offering for sale, or the introduction, or delivery for
introduction, into commerce, or (in the case of any person, except
as provided by regulation of the Administrator), the importation
into the United States, of any new motor vehicle or
new motor vehicle engine, manufactured after the effective
date of regulations under this part which are applicable to
such vehicle or engine unless such vehicle or engine is covered
by a certificate of conformity issued (and in effect) under regulations
prescribed under this part or part C in the case of
clean-fuel vehicles (except as provided in subsection (B;
(2)(A) for any person to fail or refuse to permit access to
or copying of records or to fail to make reports or provide information
required under section 208;
(B for any person to fail or refuse to permit entry, testing
or inspection authorized under section 206(c) or section 208;
(C) for any person to fail or refuse to perform tests, or
have tests performed as required under section 208;
(D) for any manufacturer to fail to make information available
as provided by regulation under section 202(m)(5);
(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any
device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle
or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under
this title prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser,
or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative
any such device or element of design after such sale
and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or
( B for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell,
or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as
part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a
principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat,
or render inoperative any device or element of design installed
on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance
with regulations under this title, and where the person knows
or should know that such part or component is being offered
for sale or installed for such use or put to such use;
Section 3A makes it illegal for you or anyone to remove any emissions device. Section 3B makes a 'straight pipe' illegal if sold for the purpose of replacing a catcon. There are no conditions as to time limits or mileage.
from time to time revise) in accordance with the provisions of
this section, standards applicable to the emission of any air
pollutant from any class or classes of new motor vehicles or
new motor vehicle engines, which in his judgment cause, or
contribute to, air pollution which may reasonably be anticipated
to endanger public health or welfare. Such standards
shall be applicable to such vehicles and engines for their useful
life (as determined under subsection (d), relating to useful life
of vehicles for purposes of certification), whether such vehicles
and engines are designed as complete systems or incorporate
devices to prevent or control such pollution."
This means that the vehicles must meet the emissions limits that the federal government defines, for the pollutants that it defines, for the useful life of the vehicle. That means that AFTER the useful life of the vehicle, it is not required to meet those limits. So the manufacturers do not have to create cars that can meet those limits after that period, or warranty emissions beyond that limit. That's what this section means. It does NOT mean that anti-pollution devices can be removed at that point.
(d) The Administrator shall prescribe regulations under which
the useful life of vehicles and engines shall be determined for purposes
of subsection (a)(1) of this section and section 207. Such regulations
shall provide that except where a different useful life period
is specified in this title useful life shall—
(1) in the case of light duty vehicles and light duty vehicle
engines and light-duty trucks up to 3,750 lbs. LVW and up to
6,000 lbs. GVWR, be a period of use of five years or of fifty
thousand miles (or the equivalent), whichever first occurs, except
that in the case of any requirement of this section which
first becomes applicable after the enactment of the Clean Air
Act Amendments of 1990 where the useful life period is not
otherwise specified for such vehicles and engines, the period
shall be 10 years or 100,000 miles (or the equivalent), whichever
first occurs, with testing for purposes of in-use compliance
under section 207 up to (but not beyond) 7 years or 75,000
miles (or the equivalent), whichever first occurs;
This is the period during which the vehicle must comply with the emissions levels set (for HC, NOx, CO). In other words, this is the warranty period for the emissions equipment. The manufacturer must ensure that their equipment makes the vehicle capable of meeting the standards for this period.
SEC. 203. (a) The following acts and the causing thereof are
prohibited—
(1) in the case of a manufacturer of new motor vehicles or
new motor vehicle engines for distribution in commerce, the
sale, or the offering for sale, or the introduction, or delivery for
introduction, into commerce, or (in the case of any person, except
as provided by regulation of the Administrator), the importation
into the United States, of any new motor vehicle or
new motor vehicle engine, manufactured after the effective
date of regulations under this part which are applicable to
such vehicle or engine unless such vehicle or engine is covered
by a certificate of conformity issued (and in effect) under regulations
prescribed under this part or part C in the case of
clean-fuel vehicles (except as provided in subsection (B;
(2)(A) for any person to fail or refuse to permit access to
or copying of records or to fail to make reports or provide information
required under section 208;
(B for any person to fail or refuse to permit entry, testing
or inspection authorized under section 206(c) or section 208;
(C) for any person to fail or refuse to perform tests, or
have tests performed as required under section 208;
(D) for any manufacturer to fail to make information available
as provided by regulation under section 202(m)(5);
(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any
device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle
or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under
this title prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser,
or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative
any such device or element of design after such sale
and delivery to the ultimate purchaser; or
( B for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell,
or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as
part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a
principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat,
or render inoperative any device or element of design installed
on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance
with regulations under this title, and where the person knows
or should know that such part or component is being offered
for sale or installed for such use or put to such use;
Section 3A makes it illegal for you or anyone to remove any emissions device. Section 3B makes a 'straight pipe' illegal if sold for the purpose of replacing a catcon. There are no conditions as to time limits or mileage.
Please understand that I'm not trying to bust you here. Allpar is a source of accurate information, and I want to ensure that it remains so. If someone reads your interpretation and also misunderstands, then acts on that, it can be costly for them. As I said, here in MA and in other states, if you sell a vehicle that has missing or disabled emissions equipment, by law the seller has to pay for making the vehicle whole within the first 30 days. Now, you may not run that risk with this vehicle, but let's say an Allpar member in RI cuts out his catcon based on your beliefs, and sells the vehicle in MA. He's screwed. He has to cough up $700 or more for a vehicle that he'll never use again. That's a situation that we want to avoid.
Sec. 202 deals with applicability of the standards, not warranty. Sec. 207 deals with warranty. Sec. 202 (a)(1) line 7 clearly says "Such standards shall be APPLICABLE to such vehicles and engines for their USEFUL LIFE (as determined under subsection (d), relating to useful life of vehicles for purposes of certification)". Subsection (d) line 1 of Sec. 202, "The Administrator shall prescribe regulations under which the useful life of vehicles and engines shall be determined for purposes of subsection (a)(1) of this section AND 207." Subsection (d)(1) line 7 "...where the useful life period is not otherwise specified for such vehicles and engines, the period shall be 10 years or 100,000 miles (or equivalent), whichever first occurs".
First problem is you need to determine if the engine running rich caused the converter to fail or if the converter failed without the engine running rich, such as just due to age. Once the converter starts to plug up, the engine will run rich because there isn't enough air pumping through the engine to lean out the fuel. In my opinion, running a test pipe temporarily may help with determining which came first (the richness or the failed converter).
Second Bob is correct. There is no time limit on the tampering provisions. If there were, they wouldn't bother looking under my 1989 Dakota (or even the 1999 Dakota) for the presence of the converter during the inspection here. If there were, there is no way states could e-test vehicles over 10 years old.
Over time, the odds go down that you'd get caught as most states don't test vehicles over 25 years old and many states never test. While the odds of getting caught are small, the fact is removing the converter is a violation of law and you never know when a state or federal government may implement testing. Shopping carefully you can find a direct fit converter for not much more than $100.
Second Bob is correct. There is no time limit on the tampering provisions. If there were, they wouldn't bother looking under my 1989 Dakota (or even the 1999 Dakota) for the presence of the converter during the inspection here. If there were, there is no way states could e-test vehicles over 10 years old.
Over time, the odds go down that you'd get caught as most states don't test vehicles over 25 years old and many states never test. While the odds of getting caught are small, the fact is removing the converter is a violation of law and you never know when a state or federal government may implement testing. Shopping carefully you can find a direct fit converter for not much more than $100.
Valiant, I never said removing the cat was the end of the problem or the fix to the problem of the engine running rich.
Regarding the legality, so far what I've found is the removal of the cat is not technically illegal based on the 10yr/100k rule, but through the threat of penalty the EPA appears to have made it effectively illegal. So far I have found two FAQ sheets that claim to answer muffler shops' questions, yet there is a glaring omission of questions regarding the 10yr/100k rule. Especially given that every local shop that I've called so far has said it is perfectly legal to remove the cat if the vehicle is 10 or more years old.
Regarding the legality, so far what I've found is the removal of the cat is not technically illegal based on the 10yr/100k rule, but through the threat of penalty the EPA appears to have made it effectively illegal. So far I have found two FAQ sheets that claim to answer muffler shops' questions, yet there is a glaring omission of questions regarding the 10yr/100k rule. Especially given that every local shop that I've called so far has said it is perfectly legal to remove the cat if the vehicle is 10 or more years old.
Again, you are misinterpreting it. The 10 year/100K mile rule is the period during which the manufacturer must meet the emissions standards. It is called the useful life. It simply means that the engine can wear out and exceed the emissions limits after that. It does NOT mean that you can then strip away emissions controls after that.
Shops want to do what you want them to do, because it's a competitive business and they are hungry. They are very unlikely to get caught, and can always deny that they modified it. I doubt that you will get them to write explicitly on the work order that they removed the catalytic converter permanently.
Shops want to do what you want them to do, because it's a competitive business and they are hungry. They are very unlikely to get caught, and can always deny that they modified it. I doubt that you will get them to write explicitly on the work order that they removed the catalytic converter permanently.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=437590
Your state law specifically prohibits removal, as well.
Your state law specifically prohibits removal, as well.
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