Allpar Forums banner

121 - 140 of 198 Posts

·
Mopar-nac The Moderator
Joined
·
26,427 Posts
Mike, we are both agreeing that it's overreaction.

I think where we disagree is in how crappy the shifter is. I am a daily user so I am going to play that as my trump card.
And I won't argue that :)

Choo Choo!

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,423 Posts
Is the shifter different? Yes.
Have they moved away from it? Yes.
Is it unsafe to the point that a full recall is warranted? No.

Because the shifter is typically used on high end brands, successfully, it makes sense that Chrysler chose to use this ZF shifter on certain vehicles and a different ZF shifter on others.

I still firmly believe this is a mountain out of a molehill situation.
Every model of vehicle made, has had the vehicles roll away or drive away. So the models with this shifter are NO exception. In most cases it really comes down to owner being responsible.

Not having used the shifter, I lean toward believing you, a "different" shifter shouldn't be a big enough of a factor to be solely responsible for this. I'm very willing to believe this is a mountain out of a molehill situation.

Now the Fords in the 70's that popped out of park, into reverse, that was NOT, that was a real problem and the responsibility of the manufacturer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
In a rental 2015 Grand Cherokee with this shifter while my 2012 Jeep SRT gets work done. I prefer some kind of gated shifter, like that in the 2012.

The other negative I experienced this morning: the lights on the dash indicating Park Reverse Drive are sloooow. I shifted from Park into what I thought was Reverse because I saw the R light up on the dash; I released the brake; and I went forward. Hmm...turns out I had shifted into Drive instead...it just took too long for the D to show up on the dash after the R. I quickly caught myself. No harm, no foul. But a classic case of trying to fix something that wasn't broken (old shifter with tactile feedback) and making it worse.

2012 Jeep SRT
2007 Jeep SRT
2000 Dodge Durango
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
No sir, I currently don't have one.


I still firmly believe this is a mountain out of a molehill situation.

Mike
Mike, Imagine that my daughter ran out to see me when I got home the day my car decided to roll backwards because my tranny went into reverse instead of park like I thought it should have been since I pushed the shifter all the way forward just like I have done every other time I got home from work, I pushed the button to turn the car off but there was no alarm that the car was in reverse and that the engine didn't shut off, my car runs quiet enough that I don't always hear the engine running, plus I have been working in aviation for almost 2 decades so my hearing isn't the best, so when I unbuckled my seatbelt, released the brake, started to open my door, I felt the car move and quickly hit the brake and discovered the engine still running an the tranny in reverse. Our porch comes right to the back of our vehicles, right where my daughter may have ran in excitement to see me, and then all because of a piss poor design in the safety features in a shifter there would have been a situation that would have amounted to more than a freaking molehill. Safety isn't something you take lightly, an yes, accidents happens, and no, most of the times that this transmission doesn't end up in the exact gear you intended isn't carelessness of the driver. maybe something like this needs to happen to all the naysayers just to prove the point that the design sucks, it is a safety issue and I am glad Chrysler is taking care of it.

No matter how careless I treated my shifter on my truck, it always turned off when I turned the key to the off position no matter what gear I was in, it never decide to go into reverse when I slammed it into the park position even when I did it at the speed of light. The simple fix is to improve the warnings by sounding an alarm if I try to turn it off when I am not in park, take off my seatbelt if I am not in park, or open my door if I am not in park. Thats why the 2015 shifter was changed.
 

·
Mopar-nac The Moderator
Joined
·
26,427 Posts
Mike, Imagine that my daughter ran out to see me when I got home the day my car decided to roll backwards because my tranny went into reverse instead of park like I thought it should have been since I pushed the shifter all the way forward just like I have done every other time I got home from work, I pushed the button to turn the car off but there was no alarm that the car was in reverse and that the engine didn't shut off, my car runs quiet enough that I don't always hear the engine running, plus I have been working in aviation for almost 2 decades so my hearing isn't the best, so when I unbuckled my seatbelt, released the brake, started to open my door, I felt the car move and quickly hit the brake and discovered the engine still running an the tranny in reverse. Our porch comes right to the back of our vehicles, right where my daughter may have ran in excitement to see me, and then all because of a piss poor design in the safety features in a shifter there would have been a situation that would have amounted to more than a freaking molehill. Safety isn't something you take lightly, an yes, accidents happens, and no, most of the times that this transmission doesn't end up in the exact gear you intended isn't carelessness of the driver. maybe something like this needs to happen to all the naysayers just to prove the point that the design sucks, it is a safety issue and I am glad Chrysler is taking care of it.
Making a up a scenario isn't going to change my mind. The vehicle operator should NEVER exit a running vehicle if the car is not in park and/or the parking brake on.

It is the operators responsibility to put the vehicle in park. It's not hard, push the lever forward and hold it there, confirm park is engaged by looking at the instrument cluster or the indicator on the shifter.

No matter how careless I treated my shifter on my truck, it always turned off when I turned the key to the off position no matter what gear I was in, it never decide to go into reverse when I slammed it into the park position even when I did it at the speed of light. The simple fix is to improve the warnings by sounding an alarm if I try to turn it off when I am not in park, take off my seatbelt if I am not in park, or open my door if I am not in park. Thats why the 2015 shifter was changed.
The lack of a key is an excuse. All vehicles with push button start can be turned off without a key.

This has been explained and discussed multiple times.

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
Not having used the shifter, I lean toward believing you, a "different" shifter shouldn't be a big enough of a factor to be solely responsible for this. I'm very willing to believe this is a mountain out of a molehill situation.
yet another comment coming from someone who has no knowledge of how the shifter works in real life, after I had my car roll on me I put myself and the car through a pretty comprehensive test, no matter how careful I was I could still get the tranny to be in the wrong gear that I intended it to be, I did the same thing to my minivan and it always ended up in the correct gear. Does it take this molehill to kill someone before we accept there is a design problem that could be fixed for safety reasons?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,926 Posts
Discussion Starter #127
yet another comment coming from someone who has no knowledge of how the shifter works in real life, after I had my car roll on me I put myself and the car through a pretty comprehensive test, no matter how careful I was I could still get the tranny to be in the wrong gear that I intended it to be, I did the same thing to my minivan and it always ended up in the correct gear. Does it take this molehill to kill someone before we accept there is a design problem that could be fixed for safety reasons?
Add me to the list who'd like to see all current production cars/trucks sold new in the USA through normal channels* have positive engagement Park positions on AT models.

*I'd make exceptions for privately imported vehicles above a certain age that are not USA or Canadian spec, in all fairness. :)
 

·
Mopar-nac The Moderator
Joined
·
26,427 Posts
Add me to the list who'd like to see all current production cars/trucks sold new in the USA through normal channels* have positive engagement Park positions on AT models.

*I'd make exceptions for privately imported vehicles above a certain age that are not USA or Canadian spec, in all fairness. :)
The newer vehicles are moving to different style shifter. :)

So many cars have similar style shifters with few issues. Oh well.

Mike
 

·
Mopar-nac The Moderator
Joined
·
26,427 Posts
yet another comment coming from someone who has no knowledge of how the shifter works in real life, after I had my car roll on me I put myself and the car through a pretty comprehensive test, no matter how careful I was I could still get the tranny to be in the wrong gear that I intended it to be, I did the same thing to my minivan and it always ended up in the correct gear. Does it take this molehill to kill someone before we accept there is a design problem that could be fixed for safety reasons?
I get it, you feel it's unsafe, and I respect that... But that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with your analysis. Please, be respectful of others opinions also.

Maybe you should consider trading in your vehicle for a newer model with the updated shifter or consider another brand.

Good luck,

Mike
 

·
Jeepaholic
Joined
·
5,579 Posts
I've never used this shifter, but from the video the gear selected lights up on the shifter itself and is also displayed on the EVIC. I can see how one could overshoot the gear they wanted, especially when shifting in a hurry (k-turn for instance), but the gear selected is clearly displayed in two locations. And I don't know about these vehicles in question, but if my Mustang or Encore is still in gear and I take my foot off the brake the vehicle immediately starts to move...I don't have time to open the door. I certainly cannot speak for all instances, but this would seem to be a clear case of operator error. Maybe the shifter isn't the greatest idea, but FCA has already replaced it on newer vehicles anyway.

My Liberty on the other hand, is a completely different animal (manual). ;)
 

·
Mopar-nac The Moderator
Joined
·
26,427 Posts
To anyone concerned about keyless ignition, from Section 5 Starting and Operating of the owners manual for all CJDR vehicles with keyless ignition:

To Turn Off The Engine Using ENGINE START/STOP Button

1. Place the shift lever/gear selector in PARK, then press and release the ENGINE START/STOP button.

2. The ignition switch will return to the OFF position.

3. If the shift lever/gear selector is not in PARK, the ENGINE START/STOP button must be held for two seconds or three short presses in a row with the vehicle speed above 5 mph (8 km/h) before the engine will shut off. The ignition switch position will remain in the ACC position until the shift lever/gear selector is in PARK and the button is pressed twice to the OFF position. If the shift lever/gear selector is not in PARK and the ENGINE START/STOP button is pressed once, the EVIC (if equipped) will display a “Vehicle Not In Park” message and the engine will remain running. Never leave a vehicle out of the PARK position, or it could roll.

Note that I added emphasis to item 3 for clarity.

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,423 Posts
To anyone concerned about keyless ignition, from Section 5 Starting and Operating of the owners manual for all CJDR vehicles with keyless ignition:

To Turn Off The Engine Using ENGINE START/STOP Button

1. Place the shift lever/gear selector in PARK, then press and release the ENGINE START/STOP button.

2. The ignition switch will return to the OFF position.

3. If the shift lever/gear selector is not in PARK, the ENGINE START/STOP button must be held for two seconds or three short presses in a row with the vehicle speed above 5 mph (8 km/h) before the engine will shut off. The ignition switch position will remain in the ACC position until the shift lever/gear selector is in PARK and the button is pressed twice to the OFF position. If the shift lever/gear selector is not in PARK and the ENGINE START/STOP button is pressed once, the EVIC (if equipped) will display a “Vehicle Not In Park” message and the engine will remain running. Never leave a vehicle out of the PARK position, or it could roll.

Note that I added emphasis to item 3 for clarity.
Mike I don't disagree with you.

But, I bet every CJDR vehicle with a keyless ignition system, in the glove compartment is a NOT an owner's manual, but a note explaining how you can get an owners manual if you really want one.

That is because, so few owners actually read the owner's manual, FCA decided to save money by NOT putting one in the car. And I bet the number of owners having FCA send them a new manual at their expense is in the single digit percentages, maybe even less.

So, you would be absolutely right that say anyone that can't operate a push button start/stop is an idiot. Unfortunately the majority of the driving public is perfectly fine acting like idiots.

The NHTSA doesn't agree with us and insisted on recalls for push button start/stop systems, because people were stupid enough to leave them running in their garages overnight, because they couldn't be bothered to learn how the system works.

I do see how they are sorta set up for a habit pattern, if a system can be used a certain way, even if its NOT intended that way, you can expect people to regularly use it that way. Instead of turning off the engine, folks just walk away expecting that carrying the key chip out of range will turn off the motor. And like the idiots that the vast majority of the driving public is just perfectly happy to settle to be, it can have deadly consequences.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Robert Johnson

·
Jeepaholic
Joined
·
5,579 Posts
To anyone concerned about keyless ignition, from Section 5 Starting and Operating of the owners manual for all CJDR vehicles with keyless ignition:

To Turn Off The Engine Using ENGINE START/STOP Button

1. Place the shift lever/gear selector in PARK, then press and release the ENGINE START/STOP button.

2. The ignition switch will return to the OFF position.

3. If the shift lever/gear selector is not in PARK, the ENGINE START/STOP button must be held for two seconds or three short presses in a row with the vehicle speed above 5 mph (8 km/h) before the engine will shut off. The ignition switch position will remain in the ACC position until the shift lever/gear selector is in PARK and the button is pressed twice to the OFF position. If the shift lever/gear selector is not in PARK and the ENGINE START/STOP button is pressed once, the EVIC (if equipped) will display a “Vehicle Not In Park” message and the engine will remain running. Never leave a vehicle out of the PARK position, or it could roll.

Note that I added emphasis to item 3 for clarity.

Mike
In reference to #3, why would someone want to turn the engine off at speeds above 5mph? Did I read that right? (Not being snarky, honest question)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,423 Posts
In reference to #3, why would someone want to turn the engine off at speeds above 5mph? Did I read that right? (Not being snarky, honest question)
The Toyota unintended acceleration fiasco.

First thing critics said, was why didn't these people just turn off the ignition with the key.
The response was, half the vehicles have push button start, how do you turn that off.
The reply to that was, you just have to press and hold the Start/Stop Button for 2 sec and the engine will shut off, its right in the owners manual.

Oh, no one reads the owners manual, what are you? Some sort of geek?

Only a tiny, tiny, minority of the public knew that. Including owners of the vehicles themselves, that never read their owners manual and never thought one thought about operating their vehicle other than steering the nose in the direction they want to go.

That is an example, but for a myriad of situations, that we take for granted the quality of vehicles for the last half century, makes them so rare, many people don't even consider them possible. But to have total control of the vehicle, you do need the ability to turn off the engine at any time and in any situation, rare sure, but its possible the motor goes out of control or suffers some sort of malfunction you need to turn it off immediately.

Again, I don't have a problem with push button start/stop, I'd gladly own a car with it. But I do see how the driving public is too stupid and/or lazy to use it properly, and the NHTSA sees that as the manufacturer design failure, they didn't take into account just how stupid/lazy their customers are.
 

·
Jeepaholic
Joined
·
5,579 Posts
The Toyota unintended acceleration fiasco.

First thing critics said, was why didn't these people just turn off the ignition with the key.
The response was, half the vehicles have push button start, how do you turn that off.
The reply to that was, you just have to press and hold the Start/Stop Button for 2 sec and the engine will shut off, its right in the owners manual.

Oh, no one reads the owners manual, what are you? Some sort of geek?

Only a tiny, tiny, minority of the public knew that. Including owners of the vehicles themselves, that never read their owners manual and never thought one thought about operating their vehicle other than steering the nose in the direction they want to go.
After I posted, I wondered if it was something along those lines. Thanks. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Robert Johnson

·
Registered
Joined
·
809 Posts
In reference to #3, why would someone want to turn the engine off at speeds above 5mph? Did I read that right? (Not being snarky, honest question)
That was my question as well!!?? Also, the highlighted paragraph shows exactly WHY this shifter design is a total pile of crap. Yes, yes I know that FCA did not invent it (ZF did) but jeeeze they took a very simple action (move lever to Park and engage Parking brake and turn of engine) and turned it into a complete cluster. I remember when this shifter appeared and every single magazine that tested it hated it. (Mainly Audi and BMW) Some things dont need radical re-invention, period.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
809 Posts
The Toyota unintended acceleration fiasco.

First thing critics said, was why didn't these people just turn off the ignition with the key.
The response was, half the vehicles have push button start, how do you turn that off.
The reply to that was, you just have to press and hold the Start/Stop Button for 2 sec and the engine will shut off, its right in the owners manual.

Oh, no one reads the owners manual, what are you? Some sort of geek?

Only a tiny, tiny, minority of the public knew that. Including owners of the vehicles themselves, that never read their owners manual and never thought one thought about operating their vehicle other than steering the nose in the direction they want to go.

But people have the very reasonable expectation that their car should not suddenly floor it's throttle and take you on Mr Toad's Wild Ride. I am a big reader of owner's manuals but I would have probably glossed over that part figuring that my car would never try and deliberately kill me either. Also other car makers had code that prevented engine throttle over a certain point when the brakes were engaged so that would not happen. Toyota did not deliberately design their cars to try and kill people, BUT they did not prevent a car from racing off on it's own and the fact that other carmakers thought about it makes them negligent.

Do or did the other car companies that use the same shifter have different or more noticeable warnings about un-intended car movement? IF other car companies do in fact have better warning systems, then FCA is not being picked on and the recall is needed. IF the other car companies use the same level of warnings then the recall should be expanded.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,423 Posts
Remember the "Cruise Control in the Rain" story that went around Social Media. Basically someone posted a retelling of a story about someone going out of control in heavy rain because they had their cruise control. Of course grossly exaggerated, claiming the vehicle went airborne, like a fighter jet launched off a carrier deck, with the engine totally out of control. The people posting and all the replies are, "I never knew this", "How can they build a car that can do this", etc, etc.

I always replied, "Open your owners manual and read it, it says to turn off the cruise control in the rainy and wet road conditions because of hydroplaning".
 

·
Mopar-nac The Moderator
Joined
·
26,427 Posts
That was my question as well!!?? Also, the highlighted paragraph shows exactly WHY this shifter design is a total pile of crap. Yes, yes I know that FCA did not invent it (ZF did) but jeeeze they took a very simple action (move lever to Park and engage Parking brake and turn of engine) and turned it into a complete cluster. I remember when this shifter appeared and every single magazine that tested it hated it. (Mainly Audi and BMW) Some things dont need radical re-invention, period.
That is simply no true. To engage park is the same action as a mechanical shifter... Push forward, hold lever, confirm park.

Please refer to the video explaining the operation of the shifter.

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
809 Posts
Remember the "Cruise Control in the Rain" story that went around Social Media. Basically someone posted a retelling of a story about someone going out of control in heavy rain because they had their cruise control. Of course grossly exaggerated, claiming the vehicle went airborne, like a fighter jet launched off a carrier deck, with the engine totally out of control. The people posting and all the replies are, "I never knew this", "How can they build a car that can do this", etc, etc.

I always replied, "Open your owners manual and read it, it says to turn off the cruise control in the rainy and wet road conditions because of hydroplaning".
Oh I agree with what you are saying for sure, but, being in the business of selling things like cars to the public means a company accepts certain risks and scenarios like yours above are the cost of doing business. Some events are a complete lack of common sense and some are less clear. The shifter was a radical change in the way transmissions were used and the companies that adopted them had to of known there was going to be a steep learning curve........and if they did not, the company was short sighted and/or in a hurry.
 
121 - 140 of 198 Posts
Top