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Mike, we are both agreeing that it's overreaction.

I think where we disagree is in how crappy the shifter is. I am a daily user so I am going to play that as my trump card.
My wife and I daily drive one (2013 Charger SXT AWD), neither of us have any problems with the shifter. I would say the design does not lend itself to all types of drivers. For us, it's definitely not a crappy shifter, but I do understand why others don't like it.
 

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But people have the very reasonable expectation that their car should not suddenly floor it's throttle and take you on Mr Toad's Wild Ride. I am a big reader of owner's manuals but I would have probably glossed over that part figuring that my car would never try and deliberately kill me either. Also other car makers had code that prevented engine throttle over a certain point when the brakes were engaged so that would not happen. Toyota did not deliberately design their cars to try and kill people, BUT they did not prevent a car from racing off on it's own and the fact that other carmakers thought about it makes them negligent.

Do or did the other car companies that use the same shifter have different or more noticeable warnings about un-intended car movement? IF other car companies do in fact have better warning systems, then FCA is not being picked on and the recall is needed. IF the other car companies use the same level of warnings then the recall should be expanded.
I'm NOT arguing Toyota wasn't negligent, they were, and they made it only worse claiming the situation was purely drivers pushing floor mats into the accelerator with their feet. Instead of investigating and/or fixing the real problem.

My point was, the engines were easy to shut off, how an owner of a car doesn't know how to shut off their engine is absolutely beyond me. How could you own a car more than a few days and NOT think to yourself, what if I have to shut the motor off, how so I do that, investigate and learn the answer? But, no, these folks owned their vehicles for years and never ever bothered to learn to do that. They just simply learned if they walk away with the key, the motor shuts off eventually, and they left it at that.
 

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That is simply no true. To engage park is the same action as a mechanical shifter... Push forward, hold lever, confirm park.

Please refer to the video explaining the operation of the shifter.

Mike
I have used the shifter and yes, one moves the lever to Park to engage Park, BUT the lever returns to the area it was before AND one has to hold it in Park , which is different from the old way. That may seem like a small difference to someone who worked on it and designed it, but to some people of the public, it is a HUGE change, especially for somebody that has been driven for a long time and uses muscle memory to use the shifter. That is true, period.
 

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Oh I agree with what you are saying for sure, but, being in the business of selling things like cars to the public means a company accepts certain risks and scenarios like yours above are the cost of doing business. Some events are a complete lack of common sense and some are less clear. The shifter was a radical change in the way transmissions were used and the companies that adopted them had to of known there was going to be a steep learning curve........and if they did not, the company was short sighted and/or in a hurry.
My wife and I daily drive one (2013 Charger SXT AWD), neither of us have any problems with the shifter. I would say the design does not lend itself to all types of drivers. For us, it's definitely not a crappy shifter, but I do understand why others don't like it.
I never argued the Shifter was a good choice or design, or wasn't at least part responsible.

My point only was, its a sad fact that a majority of the driving public is too stupid and/or lazy to learn how their car works, and introducing something different that requires them to learn how to use it or how it works, no matter how simple or easy it is too learn, you can expect they will NOT do it, and blame the manufacturer for it NOT working like past cars. That is just a sad fact.

I've never used this shifter, and I am sure I am NOT the only one, but if I did drive a car that had one, I would learn or figure out exactly how it worked before driving. Unfortunately, 98% of the driving public would NOT bother to learn, nor think about/realize, that they should know exactly how it works, before driving the vehicle. And just drive.
 
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I'm NOT arguing Toyota wasn't negligent, they were, and they made it only worse claiming the situation was purely drivers pushing floor mats into the accelerator with their feet. Instead of investigating and/or fixing the real problem.

My point was, the engines were easy to shut off, how an owner of a car doesn't know how to shut off their engine is absolutely beyond me. How could you own a car more than a few days and NOT think to yourself, what if I have to shut the motor off, how so I do that, investigate and learn the answer? But, no, these folks owned their vehicles for years and never ever bothered to learn to do that. They just simply learned if they walk away with the key, the motor shuts off eventually, and they left it at that.
Again, I agree completely except for the fact that even if I did read the owners manual about turning off the car while it was moving, I doubt that I would remember that when I was scared crapless while racing down the road! :eek::)
 

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I have used the shifter and yes, one moves the lever to Park to engage Park, BUT the lever returns to the area it was before AND one has to hold it in Park , which is different from the old way. That may seem like a small difference to someone who worked on it and designed it, but to some people of the public, it is a HUGE change, especially for somebody that has been driven for a long time and uses muscle memory to use the shifter. That is true, period.
That does not make the shifter unsafe. That simply makes it different. Further, humans are more than capable of learning new "muscle movements".

There have been many different styles of automatic shifters... Not all of them have operated exactly the same. It's simply not valid to say that there is only one common operation shifter design, it is simply not true.

Mike
 

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But, I bet every CJDR vehicle with a keyless ignition system, in the glove compartment is a NOT an owner's manual, but a note explaining how you can get an owners manual if you really want one.
Is this something that started after 2015? In both of my 2015 Chargers there was a real live owner's manual. I hope they didn't stop including them - an offer for a manual isn't really useful to the guy with a flat who needs to see where the safe jack points are.
 

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Again, I agree completely except for the fact that even if I did read the owners manual about turning off the car while it was moving, I doubt that I would remember that when I was scared crapless while racing down the road! :eek::)
That's not necessarily true either :)

Mike
 

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Is this something that started after 2015? In both of my 2015 Chargers there was a real live owner's manual. I hope they didn't stop including them - an offer for a manual isn't really useful to the guy with a flat who needs to see where the safe jack points are.
Rick is somewhat incorrect. The vehicles came with at least a quick guide that answered common operational questions.

The whole owners manual is available for download or can be found using one of the Dodge apps IIRC.

Mike
 
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That does not make the shifter unsafe. That simply makes it different. Further, humans are more than capable of learning new "muscle movements".

There have been many different styles of automatic shifters... Not all of them have operated exactly the same. It's simply not valid to say that there is only one common operation shifter design, it is simply not true.

Mike
Floor shifter designs have indeed been almost all exactly the same since the late 60's. Name some that were not. The lever moves mechanically from Park to R to N to D to 2(Ford-Mopar)L2 GM to Low or 1 with a bit of variation to the D position when more than 3 speed auto started appearing in the late 70's early 80's depending on make (like my AutoStick in my Stratus). Some were T handle, some were U shaped some just had a knob and button like my PT, but they ALL worked the same.

I have never said the design is unsafe, BUT what I am saying that it worked a LOT (to a lot of drivers) differently than a system with a floor mounted lever had ever worked before. Just because you and several others on here seem got used to it quickly does not mean there are problems with it.......the fact that the industry is moving away from it means the industry knows that it is not worth the trouble to keep on using it.
 

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Rick is somewhat incorrect. The vehicles came with at least a quick guide that answered common operational questions.

The whole owners manual is available for download or can be found using one of the Dodge apps IIRC.

Mike
Ha! I was just going to say there's probably an app for that! :)
 

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Floor shifter designs have indeed been almost all exactly the same since the late 60's. Name some that were not. The lever moves mechanically from Park to R to N to D to 2(Ford-Mopar)L2 GM to Low or 1 with a bit of variation to the D position when more than 3 speed auto started appearing in the late 70's early 80's depending on make (like my AutoStick in my Stratus). Some were T handle, some were U shaped some just had a knob and button like my PT, but they ALL worked the same.

I have never said the design is unsafe, BUT what I am saying that it worked a LOT (to a lot of drivers) differently than a system with a floor mounted lever had ever worked before. Just because you and several others on here seem got used to it quickly does not mean there are problems with it.......the fact that the industry is moving away from it means the industry knows that it is not worth the trouble to keep on using it.
Self centering shifters have been used for well over a decade. This is not a new technology and there have been many many many alternate designs.

Chrysler has chosen to move away from it, not the entire industry. ZF offers between 5 and 6 different styles of e-shifter. This has been discussed previously.

At this point you are simply arguing that your opinion is more accurate than anyone else's. I'm not interested in that.

Mike
 

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Consider that fire trucks with automatic transmissions (which is virtually all of them in the last 20 years) mostly have pushbutton transmissions (membrane switch) and none have a Park position. The reason is that no Park pawl would safely hold a 20-ton truck. So you HAVE to set the parking brake to ensure that it won't roll.

Nevertheless, about 10 years ago, a new fire truck was purchased in our city, and the chauffeur neglected to set the parking brake, and it rolled out of the station, across the street and hit a parked car.
NOT the manufacturer's fault or that of the technology. Carelessness, human error.
 

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Consider that fire trucks with automatic transmissions (which is virtually all of them in the last 20 years) mostly have pushbutton transmissions (membrane switch) and none have a Park position. The reason is that no Park pawl would safely hold a 20-ton truck. So you HAVE to set the parking brake to ensure that it won't roll.

Nevertheless, about 10 years ago, a new fire truck was purchased in our city, and the chauffeur neglected to set the parking brake, and it rolled out of the station, across the street and hit a parked car.
NOT the manufacturer's fault or that of the technology. Carelessness, human error.
Wow... Proof that it can happen to anyone.

To add further, even the now common electronically actuated parking brake found in many new Chrysler vehicle can be engaged when the vehicle is not in park.

I know this because my uncle accidentally pushed the button on his 2015 Cherokee while backing out of the driveway. To disengage requires holding the brake and putting the transmission in Park.

Mike
 

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Consider that fire trucks with automatic transmissions (which is virtually all of them in the last 20 years) mostly have pushbutton transmissions (membrane switch) and none have a Park position. The reason is that no Park pawl would safely hold a 20-ton truck. So you HAVE to set the parking brake to ensure that it won't roll.

Nevertheless, about 10 years ago, a new fire truck was purchased in our city, and the chauffeur neglected to set the parking brake, and it rolled out of the station, across the street and hit a parked car.
NOT the manufacturer's fault or that of the technology. Carelessness, human error.
I remember the ambulances I used to drive about 21 years ago (has it really been that long??) had a lengthy checklist you had to perform each day, and part of it at the start of each shift. You tested all the lights and sirens, and all the onboard equipment to make sure everything was in working order. Mainly because you might just need to use it, and also you could be stopped by a regulator and would have to demonstrate that a piece of equipment was in working order AND that you knew how to use it.

I'm not quite as regimented as that now, but pretty close. ;) I think if people had to perform a checklist like that before driving, I think a lot fewer people would probably drive. Lol.
 
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Again, I agree completely except for the fact that even if I did read the owners manual about turning off the car while it was moving, I doubt that I would remember that when I was scared crapless while racing down the road! :eek::)
They airlines did a study, you know the safety brief and little safety pamphlet in the seat back for when you travel on an airliner, you know the thing that everyone blows off and never pays any attention to. The folks that actually spend a second to look at the pamphlet or pay attention during the safety brief have shown to be 3 times more likely to survive in a plane accident.

This has been proven, the people that take a moment to think about an emergency situation before it happens, to just think it through, find the one or two pieces of information that they should know in case it happens; are 1/10th as likely to panic during the actual emergency and keep their calm, work the problem and do something meaningful to survive.

I'm willing to bet, just because you participated in this thread, if you were in a Toyota with an accelerator failure, even if its decades from now, instead of panicking, you'll remember that you can just press the start/stop button for 2 seconds and the engine will turn off. The studies have proved it, its the people that have never ever once thought about the situation, never learned the simple basic things they should know, are the ones that panic and do nothing as their death approaches.

And that is a societal problem, with people gladly being sheoples, going through life NOT paying attention to things expecting someone else to tell them what to do, solve their problems for them or expecting they will never ever have to do something to survive, someone else should have prevented the situation to begin with.

That's why 98% of people in a Toyota that has an accelerator failure will just panic and scream all the way until they have fatal head on with a wall, and 2% of people will calmly reach down and press the Start/Stop button for 2 seconds until the motor shuts off, coast to the side of the road and curse Toyota.

Clearly the problem will get better by making Toyota build a more perfect car, you can't expect 98% of the population to actually be responsible for themselves...... ......and it requires an ATTITUDE change, NOT some great huge training program, everyone needs to foster a new attitude....
 

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To this day I always stop, put the transmission (with my idiot proof floor mounted console) in N, apply the Parking brake then shift to Park. My Dad never like letting the car rest on the transmission even when not on a hill. I cant get my wife to go to N first before putting on the Parking brake but she always uses the it.

Self centering shifters have been used for well over a decade. This is not a new technology and there have been many many many alternate designs.

Chrysler has chosen to move away from it, not the entire industry. ZF offers between 5 and 6 different styles of e-shifter. This has been discussed previously.

At this point you are simply arguing that your opinion is more accurate than anyone else's. I'm not interested in that.

Mike

No, I am simply stating that you are wrong when stating that the E shifter works the same as mechanical ones, they dont. To a certain extent they work in a similar manner, and many, many people have got used to them, but obviously many have not. Stating that they are not a new tech at this point is a non sequiter point. Just because something has been around for 10 years does not mean it is a better product.

One more question and I will let it lie; :)

Do other car makers have different and/or more visual and aural warnings with this shifter system than FCA did/does?
 

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Wow... Proof that it can happen to anyone.

To add further, even the now common electronically actuated parking brake found in many new Chrysler vehicle can be engaged when the vehicle is not in park.

I know this because my uncle accidentally pushed the button on his 2015 Cherokee while backing out of the driveway. To disengage requires holding the brake and putting the transmission in Park.

Mike
That is part of the solution for the recall for FCA vehicles rolling away, IIRC, they are changing software code to monitors doors being opened, while engine is running, and transmission shift location, etc... basically, the software see these triggered while others are in certain states, that might indicate the driver got out of the car, the software will automatically engage the parking brake.

Now, since the beginning of parking brakes, people have driven around with their parking brake still on, (#1 reason parking brakes don't work, just one miss of leaving the parking brake on while driving, and the owner doesn't go back and check it, adjust it or repair it, which likely it will need). So someone that stops to dump out water from their cup by opening the door, will have their parking brake engage, they will NOT notice and drive around with the parking brake on for 20 miles, and damage it or set it on fire. Of course that will be the manufacturer's fault, and we'll have another recall.
 

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They airlines did a study, you know the safety brief and little safety pamphlet in the seat back for when you travel on an airliner, you know the thing that everyone blows off and never pays any attention to. The folks that actually spend a second to look at the pamphlet or pay attention during the safety brief have shown to be 3 times more likely to survive in a plane accident.

This has been proven, the people that take a moment to think about an emergency situation before it happens, to just think it through, find the one or two pieces of information that they should know in case it happens; are 1/10th as likely to panic during the actual emergency and keep their calm, work the problem and do something meaningful to survive.

I'm willing to bet, just because you participated in this thread, if you were in a Toyota with an accelerator failure, even if its decades from now, instead of panicking, you'll remember that you can just press the start/stop button for 2 seconds and the engine will turn off. The studies have proved it, its the people that have never ever once thought about the situation, never learned the simple basic things they should know, are the ones that panic and do nothing as their death approaches.

And that is a societal problem, with people gladly being sheoples, going through life NOT paying attention to things expecting someone else to tell them what to do, solve their problems for them or expecting they will never ever have to do something to survive, someone else should have prevented the situation to begin with.

That's why 98% of people in a Toyota that has an accelerator failure will just panic and scream all the way until they have fatal head on with a wall, and 2% of people will calmly reach down and press the Start/Stop button for 2 seconds until the motor shuts off, coast to the side of the road and curse Toyota.

Clearly the problem will get better by making Toyota build a more perfect car, you can't expect 98% of the population to actually be responsible for themselves...... ......and it requires an ATTITUDE change, NOT some great huge training program, everyone needs to foster a new attitude....
This goes back to our conversation about how some people are more mechanically savvy than others. I have the mindset that I am fascinated by anything mechanical and love learning about things I dont know about......and yes, I am one of the ones that picks up the safety card in the airliner (my dad was a pilot) because I was taught to be observant and be prepared. The fact that I am like I am (and you are how you are) means we are more prepared for things that happen in life. (I also keep MRE's water flashlights etc like the US Gov handouts say to) But some people wont or just cant think that way we do and that is just a fact. Companies that make products like car just have to take that into account and be prepared to have to do things like recalls even when they have in good faith tried their best. One has to design to the lowest common IQ that might be using ones product LOL and it sucks.:confused:
 

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Is this something that started after 2015? In both of my 2015 Chargers there was a real live owner's manual. I hope they didn't stop including them - an offer for a manual isn't really useful to the guy with a flat who needs to see where the safe jack points are.
Rick is somewhat incorrect. The vehicles came with at least a quick guide that answered common operational questions.

The whole owners manual is available for download or can be found using one of the Dodge apps IIRC.
That was my experience with my 2010 XK.

Yes, Mike you're correct, it will come with a "quick start guide" and a DVD you can watch.

My comments were more directed at typical owners and the disgust that the overwhelming majority never read their owner's manual, I've found 10 year old cars that the O.M. is still in the original shrink wrap in the glove box, never opened.

I don't blame FCA for NOT wasting money for something the owner will never use, and they do provide something and do make it clear how the new owner can still get the O.M. free of charge.

Somber, the policy may have changed, or it may still be in place for some but NOT all vehicles. A Charger or Challenger, not only being more high-end, likely also will have a more enthusiastic owner that would read the O.M. and thus they decided to provide it.
 
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