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Mopar-nac The Moderator
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To this day I always stop, put the transmission (with my idiot proof floor mounted console) in N, apply the Parking brake then shift to Park. My Dad never like letting the car rest on the transmission even when not on a hill. I cant get my wife to go to N first before putting on the Parking brake but she always uses the it.

No, I am simply stating that you are wrong when stating that the E shifter works the same as mechanical ones, they dont. To a certain extent they work in a similar manner, and many, many people have got used to them, but obviously many have not. Stating that they are not a new tech at this point is a non sequiter point. Just because something has been around for 10 years does not mean it is a better product.
Again, you are arguing that your opinion is more accurate than anyone else's opinions

I am not interested in that.

One more question and I will let it lie; :)

Do other car makers have different and/or more visual and aural warnings with this shifter system than FCA did/does?
I regularly drive a 2013 Audi S8 that has the same e-shifter.

I would say the answer to your question is no.

I had no issue operating the shifter in the Audi and neither did my friend who purchased the car. He had never actually used the ZF e-shifter until he test drove and purchased his Audi.

Mike
 
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Mopar-nac The Moderator
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That is part of the solution for the recall for FCA vehicles rolling away, IIRC, they are changing software code to monitors doors being opened, while engine is running, and transmission shift location, etc... basically, the software see these triggered while others are in certain states, that might indicate the driver got out of the car, the software will automatically engage the parking brake.

Now, since the beginning of parking brakes, people have driven around with their parking brake still on, (#1 reason parking brakes don't work, just one miss of leaving the parking brake on while driving, and the owner doesn't go back and check it, adjust it or repair it, which likely it will need). So someone that stops to dump out water from their cup by opening the door, will have their parking brake engage, they will NOT notice and drive around with the parking brake on for 20 miles, and damage it or set it on fire. Of course that will be the manufacturer's fault, and we'll have another recall.
Being careless as a driver is not the manufacturer's fault.

Mike
 
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.....because I was taught to be observant and be prepared......
That is what we've lost as a society, far, far fewer people have that attitude, and nearly no one teaches it to their children, and even if they do teach it to their children it is undone by their experiences with others.

50 years ago, you would never see a person ridiculed for actually being observant and prepared, but today its pretty common, a person well within the mainstream, ridiculed because people don't want to admit to themselves they are NOT taking the responsibility of observing their environment, learning and preparing......
Being careless as a driver is not the manufacturer's fault.
You're preaching to the choir, my comments were sarcastic, pointing out that the solutions to make the car smarter than the driver, can create as many new problems as old problems it solved..... ....we can insist drivers be more careful and be responsible for their own mistakes, or we can insist the manufacturer is responsible for everything....

Isn't a driver getting out of a car with the motor still running and the car driving away, being a careless driver?
 

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I remember the ambulances I used to drive about 21 years ago (has it really been that long??) had a lengthy checklist you had to perform each day, and part of it at the start of each shift. You tested all the lights and sirens, and all the onboard equipment to make sure everything was in working order. Mainly because you might just need to use it, and also you could be stopped by a regulator and would have to demonstrate that a piece of equipment was in working order AND that you knew how to use it.

I'm not quite as regimented as that now, but pretty close. ;) I think if people had to perform a checklist like that before driving, I think a lot fewer people would probably drive. Lol.
I was a call FF/EMT, and on my own did all those daily checks. Took about 20 minutes if you were fast. I wrote the results in my own logbook for my own protection.
 

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Remember the air bag debates in the late 70's early 80's, the manufacturer's saying air bag will create as many problems as they solve. That real solution was people need to wear their safety belts. Everyone calling the manufacturer's greedy and callused liars trying to get out of the cost of installing air bags in cars.

Then we had babies getting decapitated by air-bags in the 90's, which we should have said the manufacturer's had a point. The parents are responsible for putting kids, especially babies, in the front seat with an airbag, what did they think would happen. No, we said the manufacturer's are greedy and callused, they should have made even smarter air bags that can tell if there is a child or adult in the front seat.

And then I love the folks complaining that after a rear end accident, that no one was injured, that their air bags didn't go off, their car was obviously defective. They are defective on their basic understanding of physics and science, NOT their air bags.

Now we have people going nuts that their air bags may produce shrapnel if it goes off. Ummmm, do understand how an air bag works, how else can you get something to do what an air bag does, you've never understood a controlled explosion is going on right in front of you? Only now you know it?

I'm NOT dismissing takata's responsibilities, they may have shorted the quality somewhere to create this fiasco with the air bags. I just marvel at the folks that pretend to NOT understand they have explosive squibs and charges in their car that carry their own set of risks that could hurt more than help. I'm NOT a geek for knowing that, people that don't know that are woefully ignorant and have an attitude problem that they would rather go through life blissfully ignorant.
 
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That is part of the solution for the recall for FCA vehicles rolling away, IIRC, they are changing software code to monitors doors being opened, while engine is running, and transmission shift location, etc... basically, the software see these triggered while others are in certain states, that might indicate the driver got out of the car, the software will automatically engage the parking brake.

Now, since the beginning of parking brakes, people have driven around with their parking brake still on, (#1 reason parking brakes don't work, just one miss of leaving the parking brake on while driving, and the owner doesn't go back and check it, adjust it or repair it, which likely it will need). So someone that stops to dump out water from their cup by opening the door, will have their parking brake engage, they will NOT notice and drive around with the parking brake on for 20 miles, and damage it or set it on fire. Of course that will be the manufacturer's fault, and we'll have another recall.
I posted the SNL skit about the interpreter for the hearing impaired a couple times as a joke, but I kinda wonder if an audible alarm in the form of a human voice would get someone's attention more quickly and directly than just an audible chime or other alarm that the driver may not associate with the actual problem. We use bed & chair alarms with a recorded warning (usually from a family member) for Alzheimer's/dementia patients in the hospital and they can be quite effective. If they get the attention and achieve compliance with terribly confused and disoriented patients, then perhaps it might work for inattentive and oblivious drivers? ;)
 

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I was a call FF/EMT, and on my own did all those daily checks. Took about 20 minutes if you were fast. I wrote the results in my own logbook for my own protection.
Yup. I got pretty fast checking our rigs...I think we had five at the time. I think they were all turbo diesels IIRC. I was an EMT-D at the time, one of the first to be certified for defibrillation with an AED I believe. I'm the same way at work now though, I can zip through equipment checks and inventories quickly and efficiently. Some will ask if I need help, I'll politely respond "no thank you", but in my head I'm thinking they'll only slow me down. Lol

But this is just how I am, and I realize not all are like me. When I see folks in front of me combing hair, applying makeup, etc it becomes clear to me that not all drivers are sticklers like me....not that I'm perfect by any means.
 

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I posted the SNL skit about the interpreter for the hearing impaired a couple times as a joke, but I kinda wonder if an audible alarm in the form of a human voice would get someone's attention more quickly and directly than just an audible chime or other alarm that the driver may not associate with the actual problem. We use bed & chair alarms with a recorded warning (usually from a family member) for Alzheimer's/dementia patients in the hospital and they can be quite effective. If they get the attention and achieve compliance with terribly confused and disoriented patients, then perhaps it might work for inattentive and oblivious drivers? ;)
All commercial airliners have vocal warning systems like the ones you are talking about.....in a dive it will say "PULL UP" etc. Pilots are probably the most technically trained people in the world and even they make mistakes that can and have been prevented by warning systems.
 

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I posted the SNL skit about the interpreter for the hearing impaired a couple times as a joke, but I kinda wonder if an audible alarm in the form of a human voice would get someone's attention more quickly and directly than just an audible chime or other alarm that the driver may not associate with the actual problem. We use bed & chair alarms with a recorded warning (usually from a family member) for Alzheimer's/dementia patients in the hospital and they can be quite effective. If they get the attention and achieve compliance with terribly confused and disoriented patients, then perhaps it might work for inattentive and oblivious drivers? ;)
In the U.S. at least, can you imagine the lawsuits and bad press for sexism, racism, xenophobia, etc.... Cause clearly the manufacturer had some nefarious reason for selecting the voice they did for the spoken announcements as vehicle warnings.

Perhaps I'm exaggerating, but don't think it wouldn't happen and the design committees don't think about that, undoubtedly there will be some people that will lodge some complaint about the voice, the accent, the phrasing or words causing someone some offense, no matter how silly it is, they likely decide to leave that sleeping dog lie.
 
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All commercial airliners have vocal warning systems like the ones you are talking about.....in a dive it will say "PULL UP" etc. Pilots are probably the most technically trained people in the world and even they make mistakes that can and have been prevented by warning systems.
And pilot's call the system "complaining Betty". Our PC society, just considering putting that into a car will result in protests.

I've been told women's voices are selected simple because the tone and frequency of their voice carries better and is clearer with background noise, clearly an advantage for a warning system. Of course there are some women that would call me sexist for even pointing out what is a probably a provable fact, it might be a distraction they don't want to deal with.

Of course GPS system have been very popular and use woman's voices, and those manufacturer's haven't been hugely hampered by frivoulous complaints. My GPS had an option to select different voices, and you could download additional voices, so you could pick a man's voice if you were offended by the sexism of having a woman's voice as default. Personally, I just picked the Homer Simpson voice.
 

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Hahahah, the word filter replaced the name of the system with "Complaining Betty", you can imagine what the bad word is, it starts with the same letter as Betty.
 

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Hahahah, the word filter replaced the name of the system with "Complaining Betty", you can imagine what the bad word is, it starts with the same letter as Betty.
Lol. When I read your original post I thought, complaining? That's not the name I heard it called!:D BTW, I think the woman who provided the voice just passed away recently.
 

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Rick is somewhat incorrect. The vehicles came with at least a quick guide that answered common operational questions.

The whole owners manual is available for download or can be found using one of the Dodge apps IIRC.

Mike
Or the dealer can request and supply..... The last several I have bought new have all had traditional owner's manuals (these purchases being 2 2013s, 2 2014s, 1 2015, and 1 2016. The new owner's survey asks if you have read the manual or watched the DVD. BTW, I didn't request the dealer order the manual, the manuals were in the glovebox at purchase.
 

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Mopar-nac The Moderator
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Or the dealer can request and supply..... The last several I have bought new have all had traditional owner's manuals (these purchases being 2 2013s, 2 2014s, 1 2015, and 1 2016. The new owner's survey asks if you have read the manual or watched the DVD.
That is correct, thanks for posting.

Mike
 

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Key: Same motion, same timing, for each and every situation. The engine is off.
Start/Stop buttons: Different motions (press or hold), different timing (press or press and hold and count for two seconds) for different situations.

Now in the hand of regular people, not trained professional drivers, which system makes the most sense?
 

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Mopar-nac The Moderator
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Key: Same motion, same timing, for each and every situation. The engine is off.
Start/Stop buttons: Different motions (press or hold), different timing (press or press and hold and count for two seconds) for different situations.

Now in the hand of regular people, not trained professional drivers, which system makes the most sense?
Humans are more than capable of learning an alternate system... Especially because nearly every new vehicle in the last five years has keyless ignition.

Mike
 

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Humans are more than capable of learning an alternate system... Especially because nearly every new vehicle in the last five years has keyless ignition.

Mike
I read that something like 245 models have keyless ignition standard and it's optional on 31 others, and there have been 19 fatalities since 2009 because people parked their car in their garage, left it running, and the carbon monoxide killed them. There were 25 close calls. Maybe there will be a massive recall now to "fix" all of these clearly defective vehicles....(sarcasm).

We don't have a keyless vehicle, but if we did, I take comfort in the fact that my garage is too full of junk...er...I mean useful storage of vital equipment to park our cars in there thereby avoiding entirely this tremendous safety threat! :D

Edit: forgot to add the link to where I found all of this vital information.

Keyless Automobile Ignition Systems Are Fatally Flawed, Critics Say
 
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I am not worried about it. I could never afford an FCA vehicle trim with keyless/push button ignition anyways.
I am so deaf to chimes, from over the years, I never even notice them now. The over use of them has left me mentally/subconsciously ignoring them. If you buy base model cars, everything is a chime. Key in the ignition, lights on, seatbelt, trunk ajar, door ajar, low tire pressure, engine light, brake light, airbag light, abs light. I'd need a large flashing light or something to notice anything now Lol.
 

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Key: Same motion, same timing, for each and every situation. The engine is off.
Start/Stop buttons: Different motions (press or hold), different timing (press or press and hold and count for two seconds) for different situations.

Now in the hand of regular people, not trained professional drivers, which system makes the most sense?
Key or FOB, I just can't get over how hard it is to remember to turn the vehicle off. People have no problem turning a car off where a key is inserted into the ignition, but they can't remember to turn the vehicle off if it's a FOB with push button start/stop?

Have we arrived at the point where an owner/driver has to sign or initial a document where they acknowledge they have READ and UNDERSTAND the owner's manual?
 

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Key or FOB, I just can't get over how hard it is to remember to turn the vehicle off. People have no problem turning a car off where a key is inserted into the ignition, but they can't remember to turn the vehicle off if it's a FOB with push button start/stop?....
Habit patterns, most drivers are only concerned with taking their keys with them. In the past that guaranteed the car would turn off. Now when they only think to take their keys as they leave, that leaves the motor running.

Granted, I agree with you, how clueless do you have to be NOT to notice you got out of the car with the engine still running? Most people would be able to break that habit pattern rather quickly. But apparently a lot of vehicle owners are that clueless.

I find the shifter NOT in park because of its design, more forgivable than habitually walking away from a running car that you just parked for hours or more. But again, I avoid getting out of a running car, how hard is it to shut the motor off and restart it, even if you're only getting out for only 30 seconds. And if I do get out, I set the parking brake as well as have it in park.
...Have we arrived at the point where an owner/driver has to sign or initial a document where they acknowledge they have READ and UNDERSTAND the owner's manual?
Oh the manufacturers do NOT want an User's Agreement, likely for legal reasons it would have to list everything, software user agreement would have to be part of it, and if purchasers actually read it and understood it, they would walk out the door.

The manufacturers certainly do have the right to retain and protect certain parts of the software they create. But, they've taken it to far to be an apparent scheme to force owners back into the dealerships for things that are the normal operation of the software.
 
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