Even the atlas ATVs will be hard pressed to load up all 36 guys with rifles and arms...especially Barrett .50's.
Ford says Bronco stealing sales from Jeep
Ford Bronco gains ground on Jeep Wrangler as sales jump 25%
Ford planned to build a Bronco that would knock the Jeep Wrangler from its off-road perch. Ford says it is surprised by speed of success.
www.freep.com
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Sidearms yes rifles no.too long at 4'6".
As an nine-time Wrangler owner, I think Jeep needs to:
* swapping the front solid axle with IFS would be like Porsche making 911 front-engined. Porsche demonstrates being an uncompromising sports car automaker by sticking to its guns while delivering superior driving performance at the same time.
- Lower the price on Wranglers. JL prices are already ridiculously high, and Stellantis continues doing weekly price hikes. Jeep keeps rising prices as if interest rates were zero and Bronco didn’t exist. Neither is the case. This shortsighted pricing strategy keeps alienating traditional owners who have been loyal to Jeep thick and thin, and is replacing them with more affluent buyers with little loyalty to Jeep. This is going to come back and bite Jeep in the long run. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if JLs sales decline was facilitated by this ongoing watering down in customer loyalty.
- Fix JL’s steering. There’s something fundamentally wrong with JL’s steering design, yet Jeep continues to ignore the problem. I disagree that the solution is to swap the front solid axle with IFS, though. This would only accelerate the loss of loyal customers. People are willing to pay a price premium for a Wrangler because they know it offers UNCOMPROMISING off-road capability. In return, Jeep needs to show that it knows how to remain the off-road market leader and take the solid axle to the next level. Changing the geometry alone will go a long way towards eliminating much of the ongoing problems. I am no engineer; I am sure Jeep engineers have much better ideas.*
- Fix JL’s ongoing electrical problems. This issue is not unique to Wrangler; Grand Cherokee and Wagoneer owners complain of the same. What is unique to Wrangler is that these electrical problems continue to plague JL AFTER SIX MODEL YEARS! Seriously? How much longer does a problem need to persist before addressing it?
- Fix Jeep dealers. To put it simply, Jeep dealers are atrocious; no ifs or buts about it. Bad dealer service only makes JL’s steering and electrical problems ten times worse. Jeep customer service was never stellar, but it got noticeably worse under Fiat ownership. Jeep dealers have sat at the bottom of the JD Power rankings since FCA was formally formed in 2014. Jeep has climbed up slightly in recent years but only because other dealers got worse post-COVID. Regardless, Jeep cannot pretend to be a “luxury” brand with the existing dealer experience. That’s a sure formula for failure
* swapping the front solid axle with IFS would be like Porsche making 911 front-engined. Porsche demonstrates being an uncompromising sports car automaker by sticking to its guns while delivering superior driving performance at the same time.
Item two means your head is in sand denying the basic promlem does not solve it. There is nothing anyone can do to fix the steering issues they are all systemic and endemic to asteering system attached to a rigid axle. Always has been since the modelT Ford admittedly modelT used a non driving axle.. The basic issue is the thr tires are affected by the fact the mechanical links cannot be indepentant. Why do you think its and I rs was developed. Its not a fad its engineering reality. If it wasn't no one would bhave tried to solve a non. Exhistant problem.
What part of history is not clear????
Bob
What part of history is not clear????
Bob
Then please answer me a question. I've got a solid axle, non modified 4 wheel drive 2002 Dodge I've owned since new and have put 236K miles on. Not one time ever has it experienced death wobble. I've owned 4WD Dodge trucks since 1979, all with solid axles and not one time ever have I experienced a death wobble. It can't be luck.Item two means your head is in sand denying the basic promlem does not solve it. There is nothing anyone can do to fix the steering issues they are all systemic and endemic to asteering system attached to a rigid axle. Always has been since the modelT Ford admittedly modelT used a non driving axle.. The basic issue is the thr tires are affected by the fact the mechanical links cannot be indepentant. Why do you think its and I rs was developed. Its not a fad its engineering reality. If it wasn't no one would bhave tried to solve a non. Exhistant problem.
What part of history is not clear????
Bob
I think JL was a step backwards from JK, my opinion due to part cheapening and possibly loss or experienced suspension design personnel.
I agree, they cut corners somewhere. The only vehicle I ever had a death wobble on was an 1947 Jeep CJ2A. I bought it from the original owner. It has 40k original miles on it. The death wobble was caused by a worn bell crank. I put a new one on it and it never occurred again.I think JL was a step backwards from JK, my opinion due to part cheapening and possibly loss or experienced suspension design personnel.
I may be seeing the early signs on my 2014 JKU. I think it's due to the dealer not doing a proper alignment & road force balance when they did the lift & 35s - in less than a year the steering gear is worn and I probably need a different steering booster. The thing chatters badly over bumps at highway speeds and you can tell its vertical oscillations. I can overcome them by slowing after and then accelerating changing the force vectors, but it's concerning nonetheless.I agree, they cut corners somewhere. The only vehicle I ever had a death wobble on was an 1947 Jeep CJ2A. I bought it from the original owner. It has 40k original miles on it. The death wobble was caused by a worn bell crank. I put a new one on it and it never occurred again.
There is ZERO excuse for a vehicle with less than 10k miles to suffer from anything resembling Death Wobble.
But that is what is happening to JLs and some JTs.
We are 5 years after launch of the JL and the only "solution" is stabilizer bar after stabilizer bar.....which we know does not address the root cause.
But that is what is happening to JLs and some JTs.
We are 5 years after launch of the JL and the only "solution" is stabilizer bar after stabilizer bar.....which we know does not address the root cause.
Yes, on dead stock JL and JT this has been an issue. So much so that the steering damper (which isn’t the real fix) is on back order.There is ZERO excuse for a vehicle with less than 10k miles to suffer from anything resembling Death Wobble.
But that is what is happening to JLs and some JTs.
We are 5 years after launch of the JL and the only "solution" is stabilizer bar after stabilizer bar.....which we know does not address the root cause.
I have to agree here I've owned half a dozen solid front axle 4wd's some lifted some stock, and never had an issue with death wobble. I know a lot of these wranglers suffer due to owner modifications but some don't. Also Ram and ford still run solid axle 3/4 ton and larger pickups while Ive heard a few complaints on f250's they seem to be much less then the jeeps.Then please answer me a question. I've got a solid axle, non modified 4 wheel drive 2002 Dodge I've owned since new and have put 236K miles on. Not one time ever has it experienced death wobble. I've owned 4WD Dodge trucks since 1979, all with solid axles and not one time ever have I experienced a death wobble. It can't be luck.
I knew something was wrong when my 2017 2 door JK was more stable and easier to handle at highway speeds than my then new 2020 Gladiator. The Gladiator was exhausting at highway speed. The drive from Pittsburgh to Atlanta with a U-Haul trailer was one of my scariest drives ever.
As a six-time Wrangler/Gladiator owner:As an nine-time Wrangler owner, I think Jeep needs to:
____
- Lower the price on Wranglers. JL prices are already ridiculously high, and Stellantis continues doing weekly price hikes. Jeep keeps rising prices as if interest rates were zero and Bronco didn’t exist. Neither is the case. This shortsighted pricing strategy keeps alienating traditional owners who have been loyal to Jeep thick and thin, and is replacing them with more affluent buyers with little loyalty to Jeep. This is going to come back and bite Jeep in the long run. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if JLs sales decline was facilitated by this ongoing watering down in customer loyalty.
- Fix JL’s steering. There’s something fundamentally wrong with JL’s steering design, yet Jeep continues to ignore the problem. I disagree that the solution is to swap the front solid axle with IFS, though. This would only accelerate the loss of loyal customers. People are willing to pay a price premium for a Wrangler because they know it offers UNCOMPROMISING off-road capability. In return, Jeep needs to show that it knows how to remain the off-road market leader and take the solid axle to the next level. Changing the geometry alone will go a long way towards eliminating much of the ongoing problems. I am no engineer; I am sure Jeep engineers have much better ideas.*
- Fix JL’s ongoing electrical problems. This issue is not unique to Wrangler; Grand Cherokee and Wagoneer owners complain of the same. What is unique to Wrangler is that these electrical problems continue to plague JL AFTER SIX MODEL YEARS! Seriously? How much longer does a problem need to persist before addressing it?
- Fix Jeep dealers. To put it simply, Jeep dealers are atrocious; no ifs or buts about it. Bad dealer service only makes JL’s steering and electrical problems ten times worse. Jeep customer service was never stellar, but it got noticeably worse under Fiat ownership. Jeep dealers have sat at the bottom of the JD Power rankings since FCA was formally formed in 2014. Jeep has climbed up slightly in recent years but only because other dealers got worse post-COVID. Regardless, Jeep cannot pretend to be a “luxury” brand with the existing dealer experience. That’s a sure formula for failure
* swapping the front solid axle with IFS would be like Porsche making 911 front-engined. Porsche demonstrates being an uncompromising sports car automaker by sticking to its guns while delivering superior driving performance at the same time.
1. Agree 100%. The pricing is insanity. Having said that, Bronco is priced higher so if your competitor is higher then do you really have a problem? I built two 2-door Broncos online yesterday. Neither were top-end trim levels. I added only a couple of options. Both came out to mid-$50k range. For a 2 door! Absolutely nuts.
2. I don't understand how we went from nearly perfect steering on JK to rampant issues on JL. This shouldn't be rocket science.
3. I have never had electrical problems on any Jeep I've ever owned from 1992 to 2022 and this includes the six Wrangler/Gladiators as well as Liberty, Grand Cherokee, Cherokee, etc. Can't remember a single electrical issue.
4. In my area I've found that every dealership is wildly different. Some are very friendly, others are staffed by complete a-holes. It pays to snoop around all the dealers in your area and find the diamond in the rough. Even if you have to drive an extra 30 minutes it's worth it for good service. Around here, Ford dealerships make Jeep dealers look like saints.
The CEO's job is thankless. Trying to change these behemoth companies requires a herculean effort while shareholders are breathing down your neck for financial results.
But that is one reason they get paid so much.
Lastly, old companies, like Ford, have such entrenched work forces that can undermine "change" one needs to really tread lightly. Other times, you need to crack the whip and take it all on yourself (like Marchionne).
luck and without detailed inspection impossible to determine.Then please answer me a question. I've got a solid axle, non modified 4 wheel drive 2002 Dodge I've owned since new and have put 236K miles on. Not one time ever has it experienced death wobble. I've owned 4WD Dodge trucks since 1979, all with solid axles and not one time ever have I experienced a death wobble. It can't be luck.
We have a '98 Grand Cherokee we have owned since new (181,000 miles) and a '17 Wrangler also owned since new (81,000 miles) both have stock height suspensions slightly oversized tires, neither one has ever had death wobble. On the '98 I replaced the stock shocks with Bilstein 4600s & replaced the steering stabilizer other than that nothing has been replaced. On the Wrangler everything on the suspension is still OEM.
Detailed inspection involves replacing worn suspension parts, which I have done. Luck? No way. Maybe on some of my other trucks over the years. I used to trade pretty regularly. But my truck I have now I've had for 21 years. I have kept a complete record of everything I've ever replaced. The only part on the front that's not been replaced is the steering gear box itself.luck and without detailed inspection impossible to determine.
1. Let Bronco be the latest flash in the pan. Wrangler has survived many competitive assaults in the past by sticking to its guns.As a six-time Wrangler/Gladiator owner:
1. Agree 100%. The pricing is insanity. Having said that, Bronco is priced higher so if your competitor is higher then do you really have a problem? I built two 2-door Broncos online yesterday. Neither were top-end trim levels. I added only a couple of options. Both came out to mid-$50k range. For a 2 door! Absolutely nuts.
2. I don't understand how we went from nearly perfect steering on JK to rampant issues on JL. This shouldn't be rocket science.
3. I have never had electrical problems on any Jeep I've ever owned from 1992 to 2022 and this includes the six Wrangler/Gladiators as well as Liberty, Grand Cherokee, Cherokee, etc. Can't remember a single electrical issue.
4. In my area I've found that every dealership is wildly different. Some are very friendly, others are staffed by complete a-holes. It pays to snoop around all the dealers in your area and find the diamond in the rough. Even if you have to drive an extra 30 minutes it's worth it for good service. Around here, Ford dealerships make Jeep dealers look like saints.
3. I had to replace both OE batteries after 18 months; haven't had any more issues. But the JL forums are PLAGUED with people having electrical problems. Nine times out of ten, the fix is very simple, but widespread dealer incompetence make a simple issue become an unbearable frustration.
4. I had the luxury of trying different dealers when I lived in Los Angeles. Unfortunately, dealers are few and far between here in WA, and the vast majority are terrible. Yes, I read the posts on the Bronco forums; they make Jeep dealers seem Lexus-like!
I don’t even take a battery issue to the dealer any more. I just buy a new aftermarket battery and they last. All the dealer would do is trickle charge and blame driving habits.
The quest for margins.2. I don't understand how we went from nearly perfect steering on JK to rampant issues on JL. This shouldn't be rocket science.
Let's face it, JL is less "all-new" than previous Wranglers. It is very much JK, but cost-cut to enhance those margins.
JL was mostly modified to accommodate the 8-speed. Putting the 4xe and Hemi were not big deals.
Sergio was smart to cost-cut the things you could not see....like electrical, batteries, suspension, etc.
We dodged a bullet that the "cost-cut" Dana axles have not blown up on them yet. (remember that discussion here?) Credit to Dana
Remember, we're talking about a company that took from 1994 till 2005 I believe to finally fix the transmissions on diesel trucks. Several reputable transmission companies that specialize in diesel trucks told DCX what the problems were. They did nothing until the 48RE replaced the 47re. Maybe there were more, but the basic changes to the unit was pretty much what the aftermarket recommended they do. I've been pretty fortunate with mine, but I serviced it like it was going to go out the next time I drove it.
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