Allpar Forums banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Well we finally got to take the Dart on a trip. There are times when we start the car that the fuel gauge takes forever to get to where it should be. Once it was so slow that the low fuel light came on and we had about 30 miles on a full tank. I shut it off and re-started the Dart and it popped right up to just past full. Of course it was working when I was at the dealers and I got the standard speech that it needs to be doing it for them to see what's wrong.

Last night on the way home, my navigation decides to stop showing the side roads. It only showed the larger state roads and then like a switch went off, all of the roads show up. It did it twice on the way to the dealers and somehow I knew what they were going to say, so I snapped a picture. Sure enough at the light before the dealer, all of the roads pop up. So as I was getting the standard speech, I showed her the picture and said that there were a lot more roads than what the screen showed and normally it shows them.

How am I ever going to be able to show a dealer a slow gas gauge?

Danny
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,872 Posts
Change dealers. I drive 30 miles to mine, when there is one 3 miles away...
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
21,364 Posts
There are no bulletins or case histories for either problem yet, but it is still a very new car in the service field. Have the dealer document the concerns on a work order and check the various modules for fault codes. As fixes become availible, you should be notified.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,636 Posts
I suspect that the sending unit has a defect and is originating an out of range signal to the instrument cluster logic board or body control module. I do not know what electronic device is interpreting the fuel sender signal but I think the sending unit has gone awry.

My reasoning behind this guess. In Oct 2010 the electric fuel pump failed on my 2003 Neon. Odometer had 160,000 miles and it was the original pump so I deduced that it was about time to replace. I purchased an Airtex pump through RockAuto.com. As has been the practice since the early 1990s the fuel pump module contains filter, pressure regulator, electric pump and fuel level sending unit. I replaced the entire fuel pump module.

After about 2 weeks of driving with the new, replacement pump I noticed that upon filling an almost empty fuel tank that after turning on the ignition it would take 5 minutes for the fuel gauge indicator needle to move from the empty range to full. That was very bizarre behavior since this slow rise to Full never happened with the original factory issue pump and fuel sending unit. It would not always be slow in rising after every fill up but would do it periodically. The fuel gauge level seemed to be accurate so I decided to live with the odd behavior.

After about 4 months I noticed that upon filling the fuel tank with gasoline, the fuel gauge needle would rise to the 3/4 mark and then stop moving. I knew that I was getting the fuel tank full so I was starting to suspect something was wrong with the resistance strip on the float arm. And the negative comments posted on this forum about the lack of quality in Airtex pumps only reinforced my suspicions. Since I was still within the one year warranty on the pump I decided to replace it.

When I removed the pump I used a volt-ohm meter to check the resistance of the sending circuit with the float arm down (Empty) position resistance was around 100 ohms. That seemed to be on specification. With the float arm fully up (Full) position, resistance was over 1200 ohms. Specification was around 980 ohms.

The analog resistance reading is sent to a logic circuit (instrument panel board, body module, etc) and is interpreted and converted into a digital signal value. That value is used to drive an electric motor that turns the needle gauge to the proper position. My theory is that the high resistance reading was way beyond specification. Logic is built into the needle gauge driver motor circuit such that if an out of range value is expressed, the motor is protected and either slows its movement which caused the slow movement from empty to full on the gauge. Also with out of range value the circuitry will not allow the needle motor to extend its full travel. This protects the motor from damage.

I received a replacement pump from RockAuto.com. I checked the resistance of the sending unit float arm in both the up and down position (Full, Empty) before installing the pump and it was within design specification. After installation the fuel gauge has behaved normally. After fill up the needle gauge moves immediately from Empty to Full and the needle will move to the Full position on the gauge.

I know this sounds a little weird but it is what I experienced. So if you can get a dealer service department to use a factory diagnostic scan tool to check the resistance of the fuel sending unit circuit when the fuel tank is full, it may show an excessively high and out of range value.

If you have a video recorder, you could make a video and show how long it takes the fuel needle gauge to move from Empty to Full position. Maybe then a dealer service department might believe you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
Well we finally got to take the Dart on a trip. There are times when we start the car that the fuel gauge takes forever to get to where it should be. Once it was so slow that the low fuel light came on and we had about 30 miles on a full tank. I shut it off and re-started the Dart and it popped right up to just past full. Of course it was working when I was at the dealers and I got the standard speech that it needs to be doing it for them to see what's wrong.
This happened to me once so far as well. It took about 3-4 minutes to display the correct amount of fuel. It hasn't happened since but I've been out of town for 6 days so I haven't spent much time driving the car.

Do you have the TFT cluster or the standard cluster?

I also haven't done much with the navigation but will test it out this week too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Change dealers. I drive 30 miles to mine, when there is one 3 miles away...
I'm not sure it's time to do that yet. It was nice to see how they treated the women that were coming in and I was the only guy there. I only went as I was on vacation and really wanted to know about the engine oil that was in there. The wife will be going there more than me and if they cater more to women that is fine.

There are no bulletins or case histories for either problem yet, but it is still a very new car in the service field. Have the dealer document the concerns on a work order and check the various modules for fault codes. As fixes become availible, you should be notified.
I kind of tried to get them to document it, but the best I could get was when it happened again we were to drive right there and not shut the car off once we get there.

I suspect that the sending unit has a defect and is originating an out of range signal to the instrument cluster logic board or body control module. I do not know what electronic device is interpreting the fuel sender signal but I think the sending unit has gone awry.

My reasoning behind this guess. In Oct 2010 the electric fuel pump failed on my 2003 Neon. Odometer had 160,000 miles and it was the original pump so I deduced that it was about time to replace. I purchased an Airtex pump through RockAuto.com. As has been the practice since the early 1990s the fuel pump module contains filter, pressure regulator, electric pump and fuel level sending unit. I replaced the entire fuel pump module.

After about 2 weeks of driving with the new, replacement pump I noticed that upon filling an almost empty fuel tank that after turning on the ignition it would take 5 minutes for the fuel gauge indicator needle to move from the empty range to full. That was very bizarre behavior since this slow rise to Full never happened with the original factory issue pump and fuel sending unit. It would not always be slow in rising after every fill up but would do it periodically. The fuel gauge level seemed to be accurate so I decided to live with the odd behavior.

After about 4 months I noticed that upon filling the fuel tank with gasoline, the fuel gauge needle would rise to the 3/4 mark and then stop moving. I knew that I was getting the fuel tank full so I was starting to suspect something was wrong with the resistance strip on the float arm. And the negative comments posted on this forum about the lack of quality in Airtex pumps only reinforced my suspicions. Since I was still within the one year warranty on the pump I decided to replace it.

When I removed the pump I used a volt-ohm meter to check the resistance of the sending circuit with the float arm down (Empty) position resistance was around 100 ohms. That seemed to be on specification. With the float arm fully up (Full) position, resistance was over 1200 ohms. Specification was around 980 ohms.

The analog resistance reading is sent to a logic circuit (instrument panel board, body module, etc) and is interpreted and converted into a digital signal value. That value is used to drive an electric motor that turns the needle gauge to the proper position. My theory is that the high resistance reading was way beyond specification. Logic is built into the needle gauge driver motor circuit such that if an out of range value is expressed, the motor is protected and either slows its movement which caused the slow movement from empty to full on the gauge. Also with out of range value the circuitry will not allow the needle motor to extend its full travel. This protects the motor from damage.

I received a replacement pump from RockAuto.com. I checked the resistance of the sending unit float arm in both the up and down position (Full, Empty) before installing the pump and it was within design specification. After installation the fuel gauge has behaved normally. After fill up the needle gauge moves immediately from Empty to Full and the needle will move to the Full position on the gauge.

I know this sounds a little weird but it is what I experienced. So if you can get a dealer service department to use a factory diagnostic scan tool to check the resistance of the fuel sending unit circuit when the fuel tank is full, it may show an excessively high and out of range value.

If you have a video recorder, you could make a video and show how long it takes the fuel needle gauge to move from Empty to Full position. Maybe then a dealer service department might believe you.
That is a very good possibality.

This happened to me once so far as well. It took about 3-4 minutes to display the correct amount of fuel. It hasn't happened since but I've been out of town for 6 days so I haven't spent much time driving the car.

Do you have the TFT cluster or the standard cluster?

I also haven't done much with the navigation but will test it out this week too.
I have the TFT cluster and really like it as the wife likes the digital speedometer and I like the old style. As for the navigation, I have never had navigation before or only on my phone and wonder if the weather can affect it. The weather seemed just as bad in Chattonooga and it was showing all of the roads there.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
21,364 Posts
Documentation of early Dart issues will help Chrysler get a handle on them and work on remedies. It is doing them a favor as they need a database to work with. Nothing will happen without documented concerns. I would insist on a written and signed repair order, even if it goes nowhere (for now).
The Chrysler technicians have a hotline to Garmin for Nav software issues. Partial Nav operation is possible in certain areas and under certain conditions, but again documentation will get the ball rolling on ironing out issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,747 Posts
The Navigation data is all on the radio, so weather shouldn't have an impact, if it couldn't find your location, that would be the weather, I assume.

The gas gauge issue I've heard before on Dart forums, but I agree, that the only thing to do is take a video of it if possible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Well we finally got to take the Dart on a trip. There are times when we start the car that the fuel gauge takes forever to get to where it should be. Once it was so slow that the low fuel light came on and we had about 30 miles on a full tank. I shut it off and re-started the Dart and it popped right up to just past full. Of course it was working when I was at the dealers and I got the standard speech that it needs to be doing it for them to see what's wrong.

Last night on the way home, my navigation decides to stop showing the side roads. It only showed the larger state roads and then like a switch went off, all of the roads show up. It did it twice on the way to the dealers and somehow I knew what they were going to say, so I snapped a picture. Sure enough at the light before the dealer, all of the roads pop up. So as I was getting the standard speech, I showed her the picture and said that there were a lot more roads than what the screen showed and normally it shows them.

How am I ever going to be able to show a dealer a slow gas gauge?

Danny
I have the same issue(?) with my Limited 1.4T. It takes a good 10 minutes or so for the guage to move upward to the correct position. I wasn't sure if it was an issue or if it was like that by design. Guess I'll get a video shot to show my dealer too and see if he has any answers.

I've had no issues with the NAV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
It seems like it could be showing more of the smaller roads' names. It has to be a Garmin thing. I wonder if map updates will be supported at all...

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
It looks like I need to investagate a little more. I see we are on different screens, but to me that should not matter. I will check out that screen to see what it does. On mine I'm going by what we seen when we bought the car. Going through town it was showing all of the roads and it was doing that all week. On our way back from vacation we were actually going by the dealer and I noticed that the road we were coming up on was not there. We got farther into town and it was not showing any side streets. Then all of a sudden it was like it zoomed in and there were the roads. It had not done that before as it always showed all of the roads.

In my picture, I'm going down a state road at about 45mph. I just passed a road and there are others in that area and it always showed them before we went on vacation.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,758 Posts
I am pretty sure the zoom level of the maps also plays a part in how much street information is shown. I know it does on my RHR(which isnt Garmin, but most GPS units ive use function similarly)

Try to adjust the zoom if there is that option and see if that makes a difference.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,747 Posts
Yeah the zoom level can play with it.

The RHB doesn't show as many road names as I'd like it to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I am pretty sure the zoom level of the maps also plays a part in how much street information is shown. I know it does on my RHR(which isnt Garmin, but most GPS units ive use function similarly)

Try to adjust the zoom if there is that option and see if that makes a difference.
Thank you. I found the zoom on the nav page and it helped. Well it was doing it on the way into town and so I looked at the nav page and found the + and - and I hit + twice and it did not do it the rest of the time. So I hope that was it. As for the gauge, it has not messed up since the trip.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,758 Posts
Thank you. I found the zoom on the nav page and it helped. Well it was doing it on the way into town and so I looked at the nav page and found the + and - and I hit + twice and it did not do it the rest of the time. So I hope that was it. As for the gauge, it has not messed up since the trip.
I figured that's what it was. I always leave mine zoomed in to .2 miles so I can see the names of all the streets . Only zoom out if I want to see traffic on my route.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,872 Posts
My parents have a loaded Limited 1.4 DDCT with less that 500 miles, it started the fuel Hague thing....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
There is a case number for this problem. In my case it is more thanks to the internet than the dealership in finding it.

Case Number: S1208000367
Release Date: 2012-09-22
Symptom/Vehicle Issue:
Fuel Gauge Slow to Respond / Eventually Shows Correct Reading
Discussion:
Upon ignition transition from Lock to Accessory or Run, the fuel gauge may initially indicate low fuel, and then begin to creep up to its true reading. This gauge response may take anywhere from 3 to 5 minutes to reach the actual fuel level.
In some cases, the BCM may not initially send the fuel level bus message during the Ignition Key Transition from Lock to Accessory or Run.
A BCM software update to correct this condition is expected for late October 2012.
Note: BCM replacement WILL NOT correct the condition.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
I had an issue where the nav screen locked up (though I still had control of the radio, climate, etc). I had to leave the car, lock it, and get back in for it to work. Only happened once but it was annoying.

(Removing the key and opening the door didn't even work^ I wonder what module locked up)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,872 Posts
Dealer opened a case about the fuel gauge so they notify us when the fix is ready. Also put in for a driver side bottom seat cover, there is a rip away from the seat frame this is on black napa leather.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top