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Why didn't GM invest in Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Saturn? Why didn't Ford invest in Mercury? Buick is becoming more and more Chinese. SM couldn't kill Chrysler and Dodge just because he was a foreigner and didn't want to look bad in the eyes of the Americans. GM and Ford had no such problems.
We all know Ram was separated from Dodge for that reason - so Dodge could die without taking the trucks down with it. It wasn't for accounting, marketing, or styling reasons.
No, why "kill" brands when you can just watch them wither away until no one misses them when they are cancelled. Or create his "dream merger" where someone else can be blamed for killing the brands.
 

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Oldsmobile was gone long before GMs bankruptcy. Saturn, Pontiac, and Hummer were casualties of their bankruptcy. I totally agree with Erik. Dodge and Chrysler would've been dropped had his goofy, stupid merger with GM had taken place. Ram wouldn't have even survived. If so, Jeep and Ram would've had GM engines and drivetrain in them. He wasn't able to sit still long enough and perform the "boring" task of running day to day operations. His ego got the best of him, and chain smoking cigarettes is a symptom of that. I smoked three packs a day for 20 years, you think it calms your nerves, but it's destroying everything else in your body.
As a follow-up, Walter Chrysler was even kinda wired the same way. He saved Buick when he worked at GM, saved Willys-Overland too. Then he saw his chance at Maxwell-Chalmers and boom Chrysler was born. Dodge was next in 1928, along with launching Plymouth and DeSoto. But the Airflow wasn't the right car at that time in 1934 and KT ran things after that. He was a good manger that wouldn't change with the times, and the times got him as well. I praise SM for saving both Fiat and Chrysler, but a real car guy should've taken over after that, and it is part of the reason for the product drought.
 

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SM was prepared to jettison Chrysler and Dodge if he achieved his corruptly orchestrated merger with GM.
This is because Chrysler and Dodge do not fit the role of a mainstream brand.
FCA didn't need niche brands. And Chrysler and Dodge are neither global brands nor mainstream.
Even here, nobody knows what to do with Chrysler and Dodge. They suggest simply adding SUVs to the lineup and no more. Chrysler and Dodge have lost the brand philosophy.
I hope that Tavares knows more than us and will revive these brands.
 

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A lot of it was because they didn't want two of the same cars from different brands sharing the same showroom space. Eg. Dodge Nitro/Jeep Liberty, Avenger/Sebring, T&C/Caravan etc and once that was taken care of Chrysler and Dodge were never replenished
 

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Jeepaholic
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They didn't have enough money to fund all the segments. And they chose the most profitable segments. It was correct. Now we see that it is much more difficult to enter profitable segments. Toyota doesn't sell Tundra like Ram. And Subaru has an average deal price 30% lower than Jeep.
Now it's time to pay attention to Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat.
No, they funded the most profitable brands...not segments. Jeep and Ram got the love...they even turned Jeep, a niche brand, into their mainstream brand while ignoring their mainstream brand which was Chrysler. Chrysler got pruned down to what you see today. Dodge got halo models, while other models were axed. They’ve hitched their wagons to the idea that the public will keep up their interest in off-road-ish vehicles (and trucks) over the long term. That’s a big gamble, based simply on the fact that the market is not static and the desires of the public change over time.

The love for Jeeps and trucks will wane at some point...as it has in the past...will they be flexible enough to be able to change course in a timely manner? Based on how slow they’ve been to get new product to market, and by allowing some models to go very long periods between refreshing or replacing...I’d say I‘m a bit skeptical at this point.
 

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The love for Jeeps and trucks will wane at some point...as it has in the past...will they be flexible enough to be able to change course in a timely manner?
It's true. By investing in SUVs and trucks, you can make a profit and reinvest in small cars. And by investing in small ones, you cannot finance in large ones.
Stellantis has time to prepare for crises and electrification.
 

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Now it's time to pay attention to Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat.
Indeed, we must pay attention to Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat but also Lancia / DS.
Fortunately, the human, technical and financial resources exist.
Between the sharing of models between regional brands and the development of new and specific products, all of these will rather quickly see their line ups develop.
 

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The love for Jeeps and trucks will wane at some point...as it has in the past...
I don't think the love for Jeeps and trucks will wane. We will have recessions again, and sales will drop, but as soon as the economy recovers, sales for SUV's, crossovers, and trucks will rise again. These aren't fads like pony cars in the 60's and personal luxury coupes in the 70's through mid 80's. Although I am a sedan buyer myself, the majority of people prefer trucks to sedans, and the sedan market is in decline, though not to the extent pony cars and personal luxury coupes declined.
 

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Oldsmobile was gone long before GMs bankruptcy. Saturn, Pontiac, and Hummer were casualties of their bankruptcy.
Saturn and Pontiac were in decline long before the bankruptcy. GM never should have started Saturn - the 1991 Saturn should have been the 1991 Chevrolet Cavalier which was already outdated by then. I think the bulk of Pontiac sales - all those plasticky, cladded Grand Prixs, G6's, and Grand Ams - were primarily to rental car companies. If it weren't for the bankruptcy, Pontiac would have been down to the Australian G8, the Vibe, the Solstice and a rebadged Chevrolet Malibu to replace G6. Except for Hemi powered Chargers, Challengers, and Durangos, Dodge hasn't had anything the last 20 years any more appealing than those awful final generation Grand Prixs and G6's and that Saturn Ion.
 

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Jeepaholic
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I don't think the love for Jeeps and trucks will wane. We will have recessions again, and sales will drop, but as soon as the economy recovers, sales for SUV's, crossovers, and trucks will rise again. These aren't fads like pony cars in the 60's and personal luxury coupes in the 70's through mid 80's. Although I am a sedan buyer myself, the majority of people prefer trucks to sedans, and the sedan market is in decline, though not to the extent pony cars and personal luxury coupes declined.
SUV’s have been popular before, and then fell out of favor. Sedans were once very popular are now are less so. The tastes of the buying public are cyclical, with sales rising and falling over the years. It will happen that CUV’s and trucks will fall out of favor at some point, though how far they fall will be variable and the timing could be far in the future or much closer to now. There are a lot of variables that determine that. As I‘ve said here before, the sedan ain’t dead...it’s just on a downturn right now. It’ll be back in the future when it’s something else‘s turn to decline. Look at the history of cars to see that...sleek and swoopy vs tall cars with more utility. Back and forth, over time.

Now I’m not predicting a sudden, sky is falling, catastrophic change in the market...but it will change over time. We’ll also get to see over time how well the new company deals with it. If it were FCA, I’d be skeptical. As it’s a new company now, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt.
 

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The NEW Chrysler's Armchair CEO
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Discussion Starter · #193 ·
You are right.
Chrysler is (or must be) Stellantis' premium brand in North America.
But it is a regional premium brand like DS and Lancia in Europe.
Stellantis management has said that Alfa Romeo is a global premium brand.
Which means that Alfa Romeo will stay in North America.
i couldn’t disagree with you more on this. Jeep is now FCAs premium brand. Chrysler may have been therein the 90s but they have ran that into the ground. I think the Chrysler brand name is so tarnished that they couldn’t fill that role anymore. If the people in FCA thought it would be viable they would invest in products for that space but they haven’t.They know customer / consumer feedback on these much greater than us Armchair CEOs.
 

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i couldn’t disagree with you more on this. Jeep is now FCAs premium brand. Chrysler may have been therein the 90s but they have ran that into the ground. I think the Chrysler brand name is so tarnished that they couldn’t fill that role anymore. If the people in FCA thought it would be viable they would invest in products for that space but they haven’t.They know customer / consumer feedback on these much greater than us Armchair CEOs.
So much premium going on... :ROFLMAO:
80221
 

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i couldn’t disagree with you more on this. Jeep is now FCAs premium brand. Chrysler may have been therein the 90s but they have ran that into the ground. I think the Chrysler brand name is so tarnished that they couldn’t fill that role anymore. If the people in FCA thought it would be viable they would invest in products for that space but they haven’t.They know customer / consumer feedback on these much greater than us Armchair CEOs.
You are right. I think many people here want to see a revival of the 2000 lineup - Neon, Stratus, Intrepid, Cirrus, Sebring, Concorde - updated on Peugeot platforms, but that ship has sailed. However, executives at the Ford, GM, and Chrysler have access to the financial data and made the decision to discontinue Fiesta, Focus, Fusion, Taurus, MKZ, Continental, Sonic, Cruze, soon Malibu, Impala, Regal, LaCrosse, CT6, XTS, Dart, Avenger, and 200, although some of those vehicles are still manufactured in China and Europe.
 

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Restored Dodge does not occupy the same market segment as alfa Romeo.
Even though I don't know the American market, I don't think a Dodge New Avenger is going to sell for the same price as an Alfa Romeo New Giulia.
The price of the Dodge will be lower, more mainstream.
The question has already been asked: what is the interest for Stellantis in withdrawing Alfa Romeo from the American market?
#1 Restored Dodge on EMP1/CMP and EMP2 occupies the exact same market segment as Alfa. Restored Dodge on Giorgio global is wider.
#2 Agreed, the price on the Dodge will be lower.
#3 First see #1. Second stand alone dealer network for Alfa is a waste of money given potential Alfa sales volume. Third supply of unique parts for Giorgio Alfa is a waste of money given potential Alfa sales volume.
 

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You are right.
Chrysler is (or must be) Stellantis' premium brand in North America.
But it is a regional premium brand like DS and Lancia in Europe.
Stellantis management has said that Alfa Romeo is a global premium brand.
Which means that Alfa Romeo will stay in North America.
Stellantis management is wrong, Alfa has no global appeal. It will fail in the US and it will leave the US.
 

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#1 Restored Dodge on EMP1/CMP and EMP2 occupies the exact same market segment as Alfa. Restored Dodge on Giorgio global is wider.
#2 Agreed, the price on the Dodge will be lower.
#3 First see #1. Second stand alone dealer network for Alfa is a waste of money given potential Alfa sales volume. Third supply of unique parts for Giorgio Alfa is a waste of money given potential Alfa sales volume.
It is exactly the same thinking that you have that led me to a conclusion opposite to yours.
A Peugeot 508 is not the same as an Alfa Romeo Giulia.
If you think otherwise, you are wrong.
 

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#1 Restored Dodge on EMP1/CMP and EMP2 occupies the exact same market segment as Alfa. Restored Dodge on Giorgio global is wider.
#2 Agreed, the price on the Dodge will be lower.
#3 First see #1. Second stand alone dealer network for Alfa is a waste of money given potential Alfa sales volume. Third supply of unique parts for Giorgio Alfa is a waste of money given potential Alfa sales volume.
You think making the effort to develop Alfa Romeo in North America sounds like a waste of resources.
I see that Volvo has made this effort with the results that we know. Hyundai is making the same effort with Genesis.
FCA did not make this effort, even in Europe.
Effort and consistency pay off.
Just compare
 

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Alfa Romeo and Chrysler do not have the same philosophy and do not target the same customers.
The two premium brands can coexist in North America.
Likewise, Lancia / DS and Alfa Romeo can coexist in Europe
Yes of course, it is Alfa and Dodge that have the same philosophy, they can't coexist in North America.

Lancia / DS can coexist in Europe because the European market is ultra nationalist. Over 25% of the cars sold in Italy are Italian, over 50% of the cars sold in Germany are from German brands and over 55% of the cars sold in France are French. It doesn't act like a single market at all. The US and Canada are a homogeneous single market with gradually changing preferences based on geography and weather. Multiple brands in the same segment hurt each other in North America, the complement each other in Europe.
 
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