Allpar Forums banner

201 - 220 of 393 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,510 Posts
It is exactly the same thinking that you have that led me to a conclusion opposite to yours.
A Peugeot 508 is not the same as an Alfa Romeo Giulia.
If you think otherwise, you are wrong.
Of course a Peugeot 508 is not the same as an Alfa Giulia. But Alfa needs a FWD/AWD car based on the 508 in addition to the Giulia. Dodge needs a Challenger Coupe / Gran Coupe on Giorgio Global in addition to a FWD/AWD car based on the 508. So there is complete overlap between the brands except for the top of the line TTV6 vs Hemi V8.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,510 Posts
You think making the effort to develop Alfa Romeo in North America sounds like a waste of resources.
I see that Volvo has made this effort with the results that we know. Hyundai is making the same effort with Genesis.
FCA did not make this effort, even in Europe.
Effort and consistency pay off.
Just compare
Geely and Hyundai are in the lamentable position of not having a brand in the US suitable for premium cars. For this reason slowly developing poor selling brands like Genesis and Volvo is a necessary evil.

Stellantis is in the enviable position of having both Dodge and Chrysler in the US suitable for premium cars. For this reason slowly developing poor selling Alfa for the US market is a total waste of resources.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,510 Posts
It's true. By investing in SUVs and trucks, you can make a profit and reinvest in small cars. And by investing in small ones, you cannot finance in large ones.
Stellantis has time to prepare for crises and electrification.
By investing in small ones you can stop buying credits from Tesla.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,510 Posts
I don't think the love for Jeeps and trucks will wane. We will have recessions again, and sales will drop, but as soon as the economy recovers, sales for SUV's, crossovers, and trucks will rise again. These aren't fads like pony cars in the 60's and personal luxury coupes in the 70's through mid 80's. Although I am a sedan buyer myself, the majority of people prefer trucks to sedans, and the sedan market is in decline, though not to the extent pony cars and personal luxury coupes declined.
Basic transportation sedans will never decline like fad pony cars and personal luxury coupes, for the simple reason that nothing else is sold at their price point. If you want a cheap car a more expensive SUV is not an acceptable substitute. If you want an upmarket car, a crossover for the same price with the same room is an acceptable substitute.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
#1 Restored Dodge on EMP1/CMP and EMP2 occupies the exact same market segment as Alfa. Restored Dodge on Giorgio global is wider.
#2 Agreed, the price on the Dodge will be lower.
#3 First see #1. Second stand alone dealer network for Alfa is a waste of money given potential Alfa sales volume. Third supply of unique parts for Giorgio Alfa is a waste of money given potential Alfa sales volume.
The existence of several distribution networks for a company like Stellantis is the only way to avoid the dilution of the image of the different brands.
Bmw has a dealer network that sold 324,826 cars in 2019 in North America. It is therefore not mandatory to sell 1,000,000 cars to maintain a dealer network.
Stellantis cannot be satisfied with being CDJR in North America.
I think in particular that limiting Alfa Romeo and Opel to Europe is brand waste
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Of course a Peugeot 508 is not the same as an Alfa Giulia. But Alfa needs a FWD/AWD car based on the 508 in addition to the Giulia. Dodge needs a Challenger Coupe / Gran Coupe on Giorgio Global in addition to a FWD/AWD car based on the 508. So there is complete overlap between the brands except for the top of the line TTV6 vs Hemi V8.
I almost agree with you except that Alfa Romeo cannot have the Giulia and the 508 at the same time.
I don't know how you can find that Alfa Romeo and Dodge compete. In the United States, the Alfa Romeo Giulia starts at $ 39,400 while the Dodge Charger, which is a larger but less luxurious car, starts at $ 29,995.
The two brands can coexist.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
It's true. By investing in SUVs and trucks, you can make a profit and reinvest in small cars. And by investing in small ones, you cannot finance in large ones.
Stellantis has time to prepare for crises and electrification.
How can you say that?
Just because FCA didn't know how to make money with small cars doesn't mean that it is the case for everyone.
PSA has shown how make a lot of money with small cars.
Today, Stellantis knows how to make money with Small Cars (PSA) and Big Cars (FCA).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,692 Posts
This is because Chrysler and Dodge do not fit the role of a mainstream brand.
FCA didn't need niche brands. And Chrysler and Dodge are neither global brands nor mainstream.
Even here, nobody knows what to do with Chrysler and Dodge. They suggest simply adding SUVs to the lineup and no more. Chrysler and Dodge have lost the brand philosophy.
I hope that Tavares knows more than us and will revive these brands.
You are wrong on every count.

Chrysler and Dodge were mainstream brands until the incompetent leadership of FCA discontinued most of their lineups without replacements (lots of empty promises of new product )

FCA was nothing but niche brands. Jeep is a niche brand. Ram is a niche brand. Alfa is a niche brand. AGAIN, you just spout off without knowing what you say.

Chrysler and Dodge need rebuilding. Slowly and carefully. Quality is as important as product.

So far, Tavares has shown far more intelligence than the gang who ran FCA.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,075 Posts
I'm wondering


Exactly. Leadership... and cars that match market desires. The Dart would have been there with the 1.3T and 2.0T, but those weren't available. I suspect rushing the 2013 Dart out - and let's not blame the wrong people for that, it was always Sergio's call, there was never an expiration date on the government's demands nor did government ever have voting rights from its ownership share - crippled it. I'm not talking about making it with the manual first; I'm talking about all the issues that you can find on any Dart forum...
  • Premature death for the turbo - redesigned for the 2014s
  • Premature death for the throwout bearing - redesigned for the 2014s
  • No calibration of the turbo wastegate - started with the late 2013s/early 2014s
  • DDCT failures - resolved? I don't know
  • Aero weight-saving thin windows led to more problems than a .01 mpg savings would help

I won't even start on the insane number of trim levels and options. Did they ever make back the savings on having two dashboards?

There were other 2013-unique issues but I don't remember them. Basic issue: either they failed to test, or they failed to change the vehicle based on test results. Either way, the Dart would likely have succeeded to some degree had it started with the 2014s.
I'm with you on all points here. All of it, every aspect of power train/drive train needed more time to be sorted/refined. I remember asking myself, "whatdahell is the rush; 8-10 mos, additionally, would serve it better!"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,692 Posts
I'm with you on all points here. All of it, every aspect of power train/drive train needed more time to be sorted/refined. I remember asking myself, "whatdahell is the rush; 8-10 mos, additionally, would serve it better!"
In a normal company, you would be right.

But all the delays for Cherokee, 200, Pacifica, Giulia etc did not lead to better product from FCA leadership. They simply did not care about making a better product.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,911 Posts
Stellantis has it's work cut out for Dodge and Chrysler. How to use common platforms, but create different vehicle personalities. Charger and 300, even though ancient examples are what they need moving forward. If it was me the first thing I would do is revamp both, in the interior and exterior departments. Now, since I have no clue the costs involved, it may make more sense to completely jettison the L based platform and start from scratch. But a new rear drive based Charger and 300 would be a big start.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Small cars are the opposite of Chrysler and Dodge. Don't compare it with European brands.
What are you talking about ?
If you say that CDJR does not know how to make small cars, you are right but your analysis is obsolete.
If you say FCA can't make money with small cars, you're right, but your analysis is outdated.
If you say that Stellantis can't make small cars or make money from small cars, you are wrong because PSA is best with that.
A profitability analysis of Stellantis from a North American perspective only does not make sense in view of the synergies that will occur.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
What are you talking about ?
If you say that CDJR does not know how to make small cars, you are right but your analysis is obsolete.
If you say FCA can't make money with small cars, you're right, but your analysis is outdated.
If you say that Stellantis can't make small cars or make money from small cars, you are wrong because PSA is best with that.
A profitability analysis of Stellantis from a North American perspective only does not make sense in view of the synergies that will occur.
I am not saying that PSA cannot make money on small cars. I say that at the time of FCA's creation, Chrysler and Dodge could not make money on small cars. Because people did not associate Chrysler and Dodge with small cars and it took a lot of money and time to change these opinions. FCA had no money, there were debts.
At this point, of course, you need to use PSA developments for American brands.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
I don't know how you can find that Alfa Romeo and Dodge compete. In the United States, the Alfa Romeo Giulia starts at $ 39,400 while the Dodge Charger, which is a larger but less luxurious car, starts at $ 29,995.
The two brands can coexist.
Buyers of Dodge and Alfa Romeo are very different. According to Erik Latranyi, Dodge is practically a mainstream brand, while Alfa Romeo is a premium brand focused on sport and elegance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
I am not saying that PSA cannot make money on small cars. I say that at the time of FCA's creation, Chrysler and Dodge could not make money on small cars. Because people did not associate Chrysler and Dodge with small cars and it took a lot of money and time to change these opinions. FCA had no money, there were debts.
At this point, of course, you need to use PSA developments for American brands.
I totally agree with you
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Buyers of Dodge and Alfa Romeo are very different. According to Erik Latranyi, Dodge is practically a mainstream brand, while Alfa Romeo is a premium brand focused on sport and elegance.
I agree with that.
That's what I think too.
Dodge and Alfa Romeo have a sporting vocation, but Dodge has a more mainstream and specifically american vocation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Can't we stop settling scores with the old management?
The respective weaknesses of FCA and PSA justified the creation of Stellantis.
The discussion should focus on what will become of the Group, even if what it has been is important to avoid the same mistakes.
I find that there is not enough projection in what Stellantis can do with its brands and its technical platforms or architectures.
The subject is however interesting: Stellantis future line up
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,692 Posts
Think of this from Tavares' point of view: Tavares created a team to look into bringing Peugeot back to North America. They did a lot of work and research. Once the merger became a "done deal" we all knew that Peugeot would not come.

But whatever they were going to do as Peugeot could be done for Chrysler or Dodge.

Does Dodge become Opel.....which Tavares called the "cool" brand?

Does Chrysler become Peugeot?

Would that allow Alfa to become DS?

We can run in circles and speculate here until we are blue in the face. We will all never agree. We will not all agree with whatever brand direction is decided by September.....but at least the brands will have a brand direction.

Having brands with clear directions is something we can all be thankful for!
 
201 - 220 of 393 Posts
Top