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Hi,

I Need some suggestions from the Mopar specialists here.

I am thinking about to buy this 69 GTX:
http://www.willhaben.at/iad/gebrauchtwagen/auto/sonstige-oldtimer-gtx-440-31445284/?adId=31445284&

Sorry, this site is in German - i am located in Austria ... .

It has a correct Fender Tag, is number matching.

Seller wants approx. 40K$.

What do you think about this car - sorry i am a absolute newby and simply don´t want to do a big thing wrong.
Any Inputs are welcome.


Thanks,
Take care
Thomas
 

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While what exactly to look for on that particular car is outside my general knowledge range, I'd strongly consider paying an expert to look the car over. A few hundred dollars to protect a $40k investment may be wise. Obviously you want to make sure any rust issues were taken care of. It states the engine and transmission are numbers matching and I'd want to be able to inspect the VINs on both (though some restamp the numbers and fender tags so someone who is knowledgeable can often spot a restamp). There are some hidden VINs (or partial VINs) sometimes on the core support or under the trunk weatherstrip that should match the VIN on the fender tag and dash to make sure someone did not put a GTX VIN and fender tag on a Satellite body. Hopefully there is also some paperwork with the car.

I used translate.google.com to translate the text of the ad to English so I could read it. It worked pretty well for me.
 

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Are they claiming especially low mileage, like 1000Km or the like? I'm trying to figure that out or if this is a restoration.

In my opinion, if this car were sold private-party in the US and were a restoration rather than original, $40,000 USD would be on the high side. If it were original then it would be worth more. But, I'm a bit of a cheapskate.
 

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What do you want to know about the car? Is it correct? No is it worth 40K? No is it something that you really really want and love the look? Then price is no object. Here is what I can tell you about the car from the few pictures they have posted. The hood stripes are incorrect finish. Chrysler always did the striping in a mat finish (semi gloss) so the stripes are something that was done under a repaint. The exhaust tips are also incorrect. Obviously the wheels are incorrect. The air cleaner is wrong, the battery is wrong, the battery cables are wrong, the distributor is wrong. The gas brake and emergency pedals should have the pedal dress ups on them. The carpet looks tired. Where is the jack, where is the spare tire? These are questions you want to ask. When paying a lot of money for a car like this ask yourself what it is you want. If you are looking for an ivestment this car is not it. This car will not go up in value because it isn't correct. It is over priced for what it is. It looks like the trunk pan might have been replaced. That's not a bad thing, but it is something you should find out about. The fender tag will tell you a lot about the car. It will have the build date of the car as well as the equpment it came with (most of it) The car is probably a low 30's car. The 69 GTX had a production run of around 14,000 cars so they are not super rare. The car in the pictures is an automatic and they are less valuable than a 4 speed. The color looks to be Lemon Twist but that color did not come out until 1970. The yellow in 1969 was Sunfire Yellow and it wasn't that bright, ut it could just be the pictures.
 

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Run screeming from this car. It is as bogus as the day is long. It is a restoration boarding on a resto-mod. The biggest and most glaring problem is that the fender tag is not for this car and probably not even a real fender tag. The VIN if I read it correct is PB23 or P823. Ether way, it is just not correct. It shows it as a vinyl top car. The worst part is that the screws are not correct and the fender tag was ALWAYS painted the same color as the car. The inside of the truck should not be painted the same color as the car. The master cylinder and power brake booster are not correct for 69. There should be a VIN stamped on the body in the trunk opening. If you open the truck, look on the left side of the fender next to the rubber gasket close to the trunk hinge. Not on the truck lid, on the fender that the trunk is covering when closed. My guess is that this is a 68 or 69 satelite that someone knew they couldn't pass off as a GTX in the states so they sent it to Austria. If it is an export car, it MIGHT account for some of it but there are too many things wrong. One more thing. According to the fender tag, this is suppose to be an L code 440 HP. In 69 it would be a 440 Super Commando with an unrestricted air cleaner and a 440 Super Commando Pie Pan on the air cleaner. All that said, if your looking for a 68 GTX clone that wasn't done very well, it might be worth 20K USD in the US, IF there is no rust issues. Check for rust/bondo around the front and rear windshields. My guess is they took a 440 out of a New Yorker and didn't even bother to put a correct air cleaner to sell it as an L code 440. I don't know how prevelent GTX's are in Austria so the value is something you have to figure out for Austria. Below is the decoded fender tag....Obviously Bogus.


Code

Description

E86

440-4 Barrel High Preformance

D32

H-D A-727 TorqueFlite Trans / Some Years A-998

P823


P = Plymouth Fury
8 = Unknown
23 = 2 Door Hardtop



L9E

L = 440 375HP 1-4BBL 8 CYL
9 = 1969
E = Los Angeles, CA, USA


131943

Sequence Number '131943'

Y2

Paint Code: Unknown At This Time


P6X

Trim Grade/Style/Color
P = Premium
6 = Vinyl Bucket Seats
X = Black


X9

Upper Door Frame: Unknown At This Time

108

Date Built: 1 / 08 / 1969

319122

Order Number: 319122

A04

Roof Type OR Color: Basic (Radio) Group

B51

Power Assisted Brakes

C16

Console w/ Buckets

C55

Bucket Seats

G33

Left Hand Outside Mirror - Manual / Chrome

J25

3 Speed Variable Wipers

H21

Heater w/ RHD

M33

Body Side Moldings

R11

Music Master Radio AM

V1X

Full Vinyl Top - Black

V21

Performance Hood Treatment

V6W

White Longitude Sports Stripe

END

End of Codes
 

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Here is the scoop on the car. If you look closely at the fender tag, and understand that stampings on fender tags are notoriously bad (R's look like P's so on and so forth) here is what it decodes as.

RS23=Plymouth belvedere Special GTx 2 door hardtop
L9e= 440 375 h.p 1 4 bbl carb 8cyl 1969 Los Angels Ca
131943= Sequence number
E86 440 High Performance
D32 Heavy Duty Automatic
Y2 Yellow exterior
Y2 Yellow monotone top
P6x Bucket seats black
X9 Black door frames
108 Build date January 8th 1969
319122 Order number
A04 Basic group (AM Radio)
B51 Power brakes
C16 Center console with woodgrain
C55 Bucket seats
G33 Left side remote mirror
J25 3 speed wipers
M21 Roof rail drip molding
M33 Body side molding (rocker panel molding)
R11 AM 2 watt Music Master Radio
V1x Accent stripes (black hood stripes)
V21 Performance hood treatment (hood stripes)
V6x Longitudinal stripes (Black)

So what you have if the order number matches the VIn on the body is a real 1969 GTX. The fender tag is typical for a GTX. Remember the GTX is the upgreade Belvedere with performance, so you get a lot of extras because it is a GTX. One thing that stands out a little is the car was built at the Los Angeles plant. Not to many cars came out of that plant. I would suspect that it was a Non undercoated car since there was nothing on the fender tag about a hood pad or undercoating (they go hand in hand) The car was built on January 8 1969 which makes it a mid year car, and mid year cars can get goofy extras that are meant for the following model year. I have seen this many times especially when it comes to paint colors.
In some of the pictures the color looks very bright yellow, in other pictures the color looks like a soft yellow. In 1969 the Yellow listed was Sunfire Yellow which is soft, almost creamy. Your Y2 color code on the fender tag comes back as Sunfire Yellow which is correct for 69. Starting in 1970 they came out with Curious yellow, or Top bananna yellow which is bright high impact. I have seen some 1969 cars that came out as Plumb crazy which was not available until 1970, so some things do happen.
The fender tag looks like it might be an original. If you look at the top right hand side of the tag you will see a couple of lightly embosed marks. Reproduction fender tags never have that kind of stuff. As long as the VIN numbers match the engine, transmission and if the rear end has the correct production date you can say it is definately a 1969 GTX. Some rear ends got the VIN some did not, so it is a build date on the rear end that lets you know if it was on the car or repalced at a later date.
So the question is value. I would say that the car is nice, the car is straight, the paint is very good. I would say that the interior leaves a lot to be considered. Seats look like they have been used frequently, carpet is old and dirty, dash looks to be a little tired. For 40K you should be getting a nearly perfect car. 40K is a heck of a lot of money to spend on a toy, and it should be right. There was nothing on the fender tag regarding tires or wheels. That is a bit suprising, and curious, but not unheard of.
In the engine bay there are a lot of issues. The car is a three speed wiper car and it has the correct three speed wiper, so thats a good thing. The air cleaner is just plain silly. That air cleaner is from a 1966 C body car. You can tell by the round tube for the fresh air intake. In 1967 the High Perfformance air cleaners got a dual snorkle and the tubes were oval. It's a cheapo air cleaner that they grabbed because they didn't want to pop 300.00 for the correct oval one the car should have. The brake master cylinder looks to be the correct style (they used a couple of different ones depending on which vendor was available at the time) The booster is probably as Cardone that was bought when the original one crapped out. The power steering pump is the correct Saginaw style.
The radiator is not original. It looks like a Modine replacement, or possible a Blackstone. The style is wrong there are no numbers where they should be. Chrysler used two radiator suppliers back then. The main supplier was Fedders and up to 1970 Fedders used mostly round top tanks (some square tops were used but it was rare) the second supplier was Blackstone and they used mostly square top tanks. So you could have either style depending on which vendor supplied which plant so on and so forth. But the numbers should always be in the same place and I can't see them. That top tank on that radiator isn't even close to being right. The fan shroud looks to be wrong. It is too deep at the top. The distributor is wrong. The car should have a cast iron Dual point distributor.
If you look closely at the engine bay you will see where they did a scuff and shoot in the engine bay. The battery tray is nasty, but just behind it on the shock tower you will see the old yellow paint, and under the hood hinges. That tells me the masked the engine bay off and squirted it without taking the engine out. All of the hoses have screw type water hose clamps, they should be Corbin spring clamps. The PCV is on the wrong side of the car. It should come from the passenger side of the engine. The spark plug wires have no factory holders, and probably are generic plug wires. The heater and radiator hoses are probably generic and not Mopar. The heater hose fender clamp looks like it was painted yellow (probably not masked off during painting). The battry is wrong. I would bet that the alternator is not the original.
The wipers are wrong. They are black plastic ones, when they should be steel/aluminum. The front side marker lights are wrong. They have a balck boarder and should be body color. No doubt they are replacements which come in black and they never bothered to paint them. Wrong exhaust tips. They should be ovals and they are straight cuts. The steering wheel has a wrap on it. No doubt it is cracked in a few places. You don't really see the underside, so it's hard to tell what is going on.
The car has a rake to it. Either they turned the torsion bars down in the front or they have extended spring shackles. The car should sit nearly level. It doesn't really mean anything other than it has been fooled with.
All in all it is a nice looking car, but no where near a 40K car. A car like that in this country is maybe a 30K or possibly slightly more if it is numbers matching. It all depends on personal taste and value. There is no value in this car at this price. If it is a question of falling in love with your dream car, then that is a whole different story. American muscle cars are rare in Europe, but that doesn't mean they should be over priced.
 
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